Purchasing an M10 of some sort. I just can't decide which one.

[Ouroboros]

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18 minutes ago, catacore said:

Just a word of caution: R @ 40mp will require faster shutter speeds. Some say 2xFL, some say 4xFL. 

Nope.

It just needs a little user experience and a reliable technique before pressing the shutter, the same as any other film or digital Leica M.  Worriers can always fall back on auto iso if needed.

[catacore]

49 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Nope.

It just needs a little user experience and a reliable technique before pressing the shutter, the same as any other film or digital Leica M.  Worriers can always fall back on auto iso if needed.

Well, it was just a suggestion for the OP to take that into consideration/further investigation before commiting for the P or R. Especially as it was not brought up until now on this thread.

I remember one user of this forum (I think he is from France) who did the swap from P to R, then back to P, then back to R, then ended up with the P for this very reason mentioned above. IIRC the last R he had was for about one year, before switching back to P for the last time. So he might have used his R quite a bit, so he might have had a bit more that a "little user experience". As for the auto-ISO, the better performance at high ISO would be negated by that very fact of decreasing the SS. (I went through the same "decision tree" when my GAS told me to upgrade my M240 - and for me the R without IBIS was a no-go. So I thought to offer my two cents here).

[Ouroboros]

19 minutes ago, catacore said:

…… As for the auto-ISO, the better performance at high ISO would be negated by that very fact of decreasing the SS. (I went through the same "decision tree" when my GAS told me to upgrade my M240 - and for me the R without IBIS was a no-go. So I thought to offer my two cents here).

That’s a shame.  I think you’re missing out on a far better Leica M.  36-40mp sensors have been around, without IBIS, for well over a decade.  The earliest in my experience is the Nikon D800, albeit with a reputation for ‘shutter shock’ that resulted in a shutter redesign in the D800E, but I’ve never felt the need for IBIS in the M10-R.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Ouroboros

[catacore]

45 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

That’s a shame.  I think you’re missing out on a far better Leica M.  36-40mp sensors have been around, without IBIS, for well over a decade.  The earliest in my experience is the Nikon D800, albeit with a reputation for ‘shutter shock’ that resulted in a shutter redesign in the D800E, but I’ve never felt the need for IBIS in the M10-R.

I have had and used the D800 for about one year. At that time I was "adjusted" to high MPx count from using a D7000 before the D800. But I remember I had a shock when I switched from D700 @ 12mp FF to D7000 @ 16mp APS-C. So, yes, the photographer can adjust to whatever is needed. But this is until one finds out what IBIS can do for you. After the D800 I went to m43 (mainly due to size/weight concerns) and IBIS became part of my "photographic life" 😅. Now even with Sony mirrorless I still miss the IBIS from m43.  So, for me, right now, the 24mp is the max rezolution I want without IBIS. And, actually, the max rezolution I want (in fact, NEED) anyway. (Sold my A7Riii and kept my A7C)

Edited March 30, 2023 by catacore

[P08C]

1 hour ago, catacore said:

Well, it was just a suggestion for the OP to take that into consideration/further investigation before commiting for the P or R. Especially as it was not brought up until now on this thread.

I remember one user of this forum (I think he is from France) who did the swap from P to R, then back to P, then back to R, then ended up with the P for this very reason mentioned above. IIRC the last R he had was for about one year, before switching back to P for the last time. So he might have used his R quite a bit, so he might have had a bit more that a "little user experience". As for the auto-ISO, the better performance at high ISO would be negated by that very fact of decreasing the SS. (I went through the same "decision tree" when my GAS told me to upgrade my M240 - and for me the R without IBIS was a no-go. So I thought to offer my two cents here).

I'm actually very grateful that you suggested this, because it's not some I had considered. It also makes me feel a little better about not feeling like I need to stretch my budget to get the higher resolution sensor. Thank you!

[P08C]

How do you guys feel about the voigtlander 35mm 2.5 color skopar vs the zeiss 35mm biogon?

[Chris W]

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I would have thought Voigtlander 35mm f2 APO?

[Wolfs head]

Seems that I can’t delete a post, either….

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Wolfs head

[Wolfs head]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Open Google… enter “Leica forum Zeiss lens wobble.”  

Hopefully your next 30 years will be productive.

Jeff

😁😁😁

[dbeids]

Perhaps consider an M10-M? I’ve got an M10-r (it’s great) but the M10-M is a truly special camera

[Greenhilltony]

I have owned my M10-P for four weeks now and it's my very first Leica, so I can't compare it to any other M-body. But I can tell you I am very satisfied with the sensor's performance.

I don't care the noise at all since I always applied film-like presets to my raw files. All I care is if I can capture the moment I want on the street. So I always shoot at ISO 800 in daytime, sometimes up to 1600 to allow me shoot at F8 and shutter speed above 1/250 and more comfortably at 1/500 to avoid motion blur from I myself walking and object movements. (For those who knows Sunny 16, I know it as well, but at this season and my region, it seems to be only "Sunny 8", the sunlight is two stops weaker). At lowlight, 3200 is my base ISO, to get 1/125 at F4 on the streetlight lightened outdoors/inside metro stations and 1/500 when close to shops / inside the bright shopping malls. For me, even the noise at 6400 is bearable, but higher ISO will show significant impact on image acuity.

The extra highlight recovery on M10-R is great, but I can live without it, because digital sensors are destined to save more details in dark instead of highlight. I even underexposed for 2-3 stops in daylight and 1-2 stops at dim light, and correct the exposures in Lightroom. The details in the dark are recovered pretty well and have never ruined any of my shots. 

 

[pgh]

Get a beat up M10 and have the same essential camera a the P, minus a few aesthetic differences - and find a beat up 35mm summicron - and wait until you can.

If you really, really, really just cannot - then get the R. The R or the M10-M (if you can limit yourself to bw) are the only M1010 variants worth paying the premium for IMO because it is in the pictures. 

There is absolutely no practical reason to pay the premium for the P over the regular M10. You're getting the same image quality.

Sure, buying a Leica isn't practical to begin with, but at some point you've got to draw the line if you care more about making pictures than having a cool object. 

That said, I think the M10 series is the best digital thing Leica has ever done and good chance ever will do - just don't get distracted by paying for the things that aren't in the pictures. 

[Herr Barnack]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:25 AM, catacore said:

Just a word of caution: R @ 40mp (and no IBIS) will require faster shutter speeds. Some say 2xFL, some say 4xFL. 

@P08C  When shooting with my 40mp M10M, I have found that 2xFL is sufficient to produce sharp files. 

As for the question of which M10 to get, I can't see a down side to getting an M10R or maybe an M10M if you are seriously into black and white photography.

[lucy63]

I've been using the M10R every day for a few months now and never think about IBIS or the lack of it, I shoot exactly as I shot my all my other M's without blurry shots.

[shanefking]

If its a $600 price difference I’d get the R, if only because it has a similar sensor to the Leica S3 🤤.
 

 The difference between “like new” and “excellent” will evaporate the instant you get your first scratch on the camera— and it will be a badge of honor, proof that your new camera wasn’t destined to gather dust on the shelf.

 

 

[Snipe10]

On 3/30/2023 at 12:30 AM, Ouroboros said:

M10-R 40mp resolution does not cause any ‘issues in the pp chain’ or with archiving, these are the weakest reasons  to not buy an M10-R I’v ever seen!

You won’t go far wrong with any M10 version, my own preference is the M10-R black paint. It has all the resolution and dr that I’ll ever need in an M camera and the files are clean and easy to work with. 

As for the Zeiss 35mm lens, it seems to be reasonably well-regarded but bear in mind some ZM lenses can suffer from ‘Zeiss wobble’, which can be rectified.  Personally, I’d look for a good used summicron  initially,  if your budget can stretch to  it.

Whatever your choice, enjoy using it.

 

This is what I bought, M10-R Black Paint, LNIB from Leica at a screaming deal,