Purchasing an M10 of some sort. I just can't decide which one.

[P08C]

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If I had camera nerd friends I wouldn't be asking this question here, but I do not...so here I am.

I'm about to make the largest photography purchase I've ever made and was hoping for a little friendly advice. I've decided that I am going to purchase an M10-P or M10-R. I can get into the specifics some other time, but I know for a fact that I will be purchasing an M10. I've already considered the M240, M262, Q, Q2, and normal M10. 

I've basically got it narrowed down to either a silver M10-P, or a black M10-R. I'm also going to purchase the Zeiss 35mm F/2.8 Biogon since 35mm is my favorite focal length.

Obviously the M10-R is the superior camera. 40mp vs 24mp, and all the other nuances that go with the sensor that's in it. It's not even the 40mp that appeals to me, it's the increased dynamic range and better highlight recovery. How different are the colors between the two sensors? Is the performance difference really that noticeable? I don't make large prints, I don't even really crop my photos that much. Most all of my work still lives on my PC, gets shared every once in a while, but mostly it's the process of taking the picture and editing it that I enjoy the most.

I love editing my photos, that's the end goal for me. I want a nice DNG file that has a lot of information for me to tweak and change based on how I'm feeling that day. I know the M10-R will most likely give me exactly what I want...but will the M10-P do it for me as well? 

The M10-R I'm looking at is black (which I greatly prefer) and the M10-P is silver, which looks cool and classic, but isn't my first choice. The black M10-Ps are about $300-$400 more expensive that the silver ones. There's also about a $600 price difference between the silver M10-P and the black M10-R. However, for less money, I'll be getting a "like new M10-P" while the M10-R is "Excellent". 

Can you give me some advice, maybe help me put all of this into some sort of perspective that makes sense. I'd be super appreciative. Either way I know that I'll be getting an incredible camera, I just don't know what the right choice is. 

Budget wise M10-P with the Zeiss lens maxes out what I have saved up. The M10-R with the Zeiss lens exceeds my budget by about $500 (but it's not the end of the world).

Thanks for reading my incoherent rambling. 

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[dpitt]

When in doubt, always chose a lens over MP count. And I personally do not care much about the P models in general. You pay a premium for very little added performance. A screen protector will cover most of the 'improvements' compared to the regular models and it saves money to spend towards the lens. 24MP is plenty for your use IMHO and having 47MP will probably add more issues in the PP chain like CPU performance and backup issues. This will also cost extra money.

My advice would be to buy a regular M10 with the best 35mm you can afford without breaking the bank. Your lens will stay with you for much longer than the M10 will. And IQ will be better too compared to a M10R with a 'compromise' lens. Not saying that the Zeiss is not good, but any Leica M deserves to have at least one Leica high performance lens to use it with. You will then have a bench mark regarding size, handling and IQ to chose your next lenses.

[Ouroboros]

M10-R 40mp resolution does not cause any ‘issues in the pp chain’ or with archiving, these are the weakest reasons  to not buy an M10-R I’v ever seen!

You won’t go far wrong with any M10 version, my own preference is the M10-R black paint. It has all the resolution and dr that I’ll ever need in an M camera and the files are clean and easy to work with. 

As for the Zeiss 35mm lens, it seems to be reasonably well-regarded but bear in mind some ZM lenses can suffer from ‘Zeiss wobble’, which can be rectified.  Personally, I’d look for a good used summicron  initially,  if your budget can stretch to  it.

Whatever your choice, enjoy using it.

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Ouroboros

[Wolfs head]

I’m also planning to go down the M10R/Zeiss Planar route as soon as I can find excellent used versions.  Can you explain a little more about ‘Zeiss wobble’ - forum searches haven’t revealed anything.

[dpitt]

21 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

M10-R 40mp resolution does not cause any ‘issues in the pp chain’ or with archiving, these are the weakest reasons  to not buy an M10-R I’v ever seen!
 

You have a point. If money is no object there are plenty of solutions available.

The OP however seems to have a limited budget (as most of us do). Moving from a 24 MP (44 MB) raw process to 47 MP (80 MB) will require 2x more space on your working disk and 2x more in backup. It will also require 4x more memory and processing power to work at the same speed. If you work mainly on a Macbook Pro like I do, that could mean buying a new Macbook Pro or not (since the latest models have storage that can not be upgraded). If the OP states that the M10R + Zeiss will already be over budget somewhat, I doubt the OP would like to spend an extra $2500 for a new Macbook Pro (1 TB HD, even that is going to fill up fast with 47MP) right now.

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by dpitt

[Ouroboros]

21 minutes ago, dpitt said:

…..I doubt the OP would like to spend an extra $2500 for a new Macbook Pro (1 TB HD, even that is going to fill up fast with 47MP) right now.

 

I think you’re making more of this than is really necessary, I think we can assume the OP has a perfectly capable system. I certainly have no need to spend an additional £2000 on a new MacBook Pro with a 1tb hard drive (does anyone seriously archive their files with laptop internal memory?).  My old 2015 MacBook Pro, working from 4tb external drives, does just fine with processing my M10-R files with a fraction of the power and internal memory you quote.  It would struggle with large batch processing, admittedly, but if that were something I’d need then I’d be using the iMac Pro in the studio.

 

 

[Ouroboros]

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46 minutes ago, Wolfs head said:

I’m also planning to go down the M10R/Zeiss Planar route as soon as I can find excellent used versions.  Can you explain a little more about ‘Zeiss wobble’ - forum searches haven’t revealed anything.

One of numerous threads.

[dpitt]

16 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I think you’re making more of this than is really necessary, I think we can assume the OP has a perfectly capable system. I certainly have no need to spend an additional £2000 on a new MacBook Pro with a 1tb hard drive (does anyone seriously archive their files with laptop internal memory?).  My old 2015 MacBook Pro, working from 4tb external drives, does just fine with processing my M10-R files with a fraction of the power and internal memory you quote.  It would struggle with large batch processing, admittedly, but if that were something I’d need then I’d be using the iMac Pro in the studio.

 

 

Funny enough, that is my setup too. A Macbook Pro 2015 16GB RAM and 256 GB internal storage. It works fine with a lot of copying back and from my external 5TB drive. The largest files are the 45MB from my Leica SL. But I know I could not handle 75MB. I could sort of, but only on a piecemeal basis. Far from comfortable. I just bought a 128GB SD card for my Leica SL. I don't even have enough free space to load half of this on my internal hard drive.

Also, even the 18MP DNG files from my M9 proved too much to use something like TOPAZ AI software at comfortable speed on my Macbook Pro.

Edited March 30, 2023 by dpitt

[Wolfs head]

Quite right!  30 years experience on the web and I still can’t use search effectively!  

[jimmielx]

@P08C I think you have settled on a good way to get into the Leica M system. If I was in the position to upgrade to an M10 variant I would be torn between the P and R variants. I do think these represent a decent upgrade on the base model with a quieter shutter and touchscreen. 
I suspect that on the basis of resolution alone, for the use case you describe, the M10P would be more than adequate. I don’t know enough about dynamic range to comment on how much difference the R would make - for my own use that would be a concern that was lower down the list. 
 

On the lens front I think the C-Biogon is great place to start. Declared interest - I do own one. It is a nice small lens which balances and handles well on an M. I have found nothing lacking in the images it creates. It is definitely modern in its rendering and very resistant to flare - whether those are taken as positive or negative points is up to the individual of course! On the Zeiss wobble, I am quite sure it exists, but I have owned four Zeiss lenses over a number of years and have not experienced it. From reading this forum I would infer that there is a chance with any lens or camera from any brand that it may need a repair or service at some point. 
 

I would endorse spending more on the camera you want at this point and getting a less expensive (though high performing) lens, as you have outlined, is a good plan. There would be nothing to stop you trading in the Zeiss further down the line if you wanted something different. On the other hand the Zeiss might well do everything you need. 
 

Good luck, enjoy your new M when you get it. 

[newtoleica]

I was in this position recently getting back into M after a couple of years gap and having owned an M10P and M10D. 
I don’t think the extra MP and marginal highlight recovery would add much for me as I was quite happy with the M10 files. 
so it was really down to aesthetic. I like the ‘P’ style much more than standard. 
if the M10-R black paint was still available I would have gone for that. 
I also got a good deal on my M10-P, just serviced new LCD and £1000 less than those floating round on eBay.

I think you would be happy with either an R or a P, just get what you can in terms of best value and condition. 

[Ouroboros]

8 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Funny enough, that is my setup too. A Macbook Pro 2015 16GB RAM and 256 GB internal storage. It works fine with a lot of copying back and from my external 5TB drive. The largest files are the 45MB from my Leica SL. But I know I could not handle 75MB. I could sort of, but only on a piecemeal basis. Far from comfortable. I just bought a 128GB SD card for my Leica SL. I don't even have enough free space to load half of this on my internal hard drive.

Also, even the 18MP DNG files from my M9 proved too much to use something like TOPAZ AI software at comfortable speed on my Macbook Pro.

Strange, my 2015 MBP is the same spec as yours.  I use 128gb Sandisk Extreme Pro cards with my M10-R and have no problems uploading cards simultaneously to two 4tb external drives.  I use PS CC and Nik with no issues. 
Are you sure nothing is running in the background that would eat into performance?
I run Clean My Mac a couple of times per week, would recommend it if you don’t have a housekeeping regime.

 

[dpitt]

8 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Strange, my 2015 MBP is the same spec as yours.  I use 128gb Sandisk Extreme Pro cards with my M10-R and have no problems uploading cards simultaneously to two 4tb external drives.  I use PS CC and Nik with no issues. 
Are you sure nothing is running in the background that would eat into performance?
I run Clean My Mac a couple of times per week, would recommend it if you don’t have a housekeeping regime.

 

I like to process my files on the internal drive (mainly for speed purposes). Then I copy the projects over to the external drive. I have no problem handling my 100K+ files on the external hard drive (and copying them from internal or SD card)

[lexontario]

Article comparing M10/M10-P to M10-R

https://www.slack.co.uk/leica-m10-r.html

[Adam Bonn]

R = greater exposure latitude in post, especially at the highlight end, true base iso of 100

P = greater amount of native contrast in the files, no way to set true base iso (100 is pull 200 is push)

difference in colours is there, but will be negated by which app/profile you use, unless you’re shooting both side by side then I wouldn’t worry about it

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Wolfs head said:

Quite right!  30 years experience on the web and I still can’t use search effectively!  

Open Google… enter “Leica forum Zeiss lens wobble.”  

Hopefully your next 30 years will be productive.

Jeff

[P08C]

Oh wow! You all are actually super helpful. I really appreciate that. I was halfway expecting the usual "this has been discussed a million times. don't you know how to use the search feature?" So, first of all, thanks for all the input. I am very grateful. Rather than respond individually I'll just try to respond to everything at once.

I'm very certain that having a touch screen will be important to me, and am also certain that the quieter shutter is important as well. I can be a very self-conscious shooter and the less noise I make the better I'll feel. This is why I'm pretty set on either the M10-P or R. Honestly though, this may sound superficial, I was kind of excited about being able to put tape over my red dot, and having the P means I'll be excluded from having that experience. I'm only being halfway serious on that one! haha.

As far as purchasing the best lens that I can afford. That's why I chose the Zeiss. If I was to purchase the lens I actually want (35mm summicron-asph) I would be way over budget with even the cheapest M10 I can find. The Zeiss biogon seems to be like the best compromise. I know that logic states that the lens is more important to the camera, but I'm not purchasing a $5,000-$6,000 camera becaus I'm a logical person. I'm positive the Zeiss is going to serve me well. I've never heard of Zeiss wobble though, I'm curious what this is. I'll have to do some more research on that. 

In terms of CPU performance; now this is not something I actually considered. I do most of my editing on my desktop PC. Specs include Ryzen 9 5950x, NVIDIA Geforce RTX 3090, 32GB DDR4-3400 RAM, and a couple SSDs and a large 8TB HDD. I don't think my PC will have any issues with the files. Sometimes I edit on my M1 macbook air (maybe some issue there). However, what I am worried about now is that sometimes I also like editing on my phone. I imagine editing such large files on my phone will annihilate the battery and eat up my storage. So, that is definitely something to think about. 

Are any of you Ricoh GR users or FujiX users? I recently sold my X100V and Ricoh GR cameras partially to fund this purchase. How does it feel editing files from those APS-C sensors vs a full frame sensor? Can you tell that there's more "information" for you to work with; like deeper shadows, better highlights, etc.?

Thanks again! 

[dugby]

Have you considered a    Leica Summicron-C 40mm  ?

It is similarly priced to the Zeiss 35mm F/2.8 Biogon, so will still allow you to get an M10-R

 

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[catacore]

Just a word of caution: R @ 40mp (and no IBIS) will require faster shutter speeds. Some say 2xFL, some say 4xFL. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by catacore

[Chris W]

I copy all my raw files immediately on to a portable Sandisk SSD. I edit on the laptop from the SSD and haven't noticed any slowness or delay.

Afterwards I save everything on to multiple My Passport drives that are super cheap. I think the age of the computer and the available GB is the main consideration, not the drive.

I make huge audio files in my work and never use my internal drive for anything other than storing the applications.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Chris W