About deleting both JPG+DNG on the camera

[Virtus]

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Hi,

I just bought my first Leica and it's an M11. Right now the option for "File format" I selected is JPG+DNG. I noticed though that if I want to delete a file on the camera, the system deletes only the DNG file but not the JPG file. I checked the manual and there is nothing about this issue in there. Is this a bug or an expected behavior? Is there a way to configure this so when you choose to delete an image on the camera to have both versions removed? I'm asking this because it seems to be kind of anoying, and actually it doesn't make sense. I mean, if you don't want an image as a DNG there is no point to keep it as a JPG. Of course, I understand you may be able to delete it when you browse the folder thru a computer but it's cumbersome. 

Thank you.

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[maxpower]

1 hour ago, Virtus said:

Hi,

I just bought my first Leica and it's an M11. Right now the option for "File format" I selected is JPG+DNG. I noticed though that if I want to delete a file on the camera, the system deletes only the DNG file but not the JPG file. I checked the manual and there is nothing about this issue in there. Is this a bug or an expected behavior? Is there a way to configure this so when you choose to delete an image on the camera to have both versions removed? I'm asking this because it seems to be kind of anoying, and actually it doesn't make sense. I mean, if you don't want an image as a DNG there is no point to keep it as a JPG. Of course, I understand you may be able to delete it when you browse the folder thru a computer but it's cumbersome. 

Thank you.

When I do it it does delete both, however I did notice this same behaviour when I configured different storage per type (e.g. DNG on SD and JPEG on internal storage or vice versa). Are you using that functionality as well? I just stopped using that 

[Virtus]

Hi maxpower,

as a matter of fact, yes, I am using that storage configuration. JPG on IN and DNG on SD. So, I guess I should stop using that and, instead, I should use SD, and IN as an overflow. I understand that having the two files on different units may be a bit more time consuming for the system but it shouldn't be such a huge effort. It would have been nice at least to have it mentioned somewhere in the manual. Even though it seems ridiculous. If the operating system is able to write the two files on the two separate storage units fast enough when I'm taking the photo, it should be able to delete them as well. After all, deleting is basically rewriting the file label in the file system. What I'm trying to say is that I know that the speed of writing on the internal storage is a tad faster than on the SD but, as I said, if it can do it properly once, than it should be able to do it the second time without issues. Thank you again for your answer.

[lct]

15 hours ago, Virtus said:

I am using that storage configuration. JPG on IN and DNG on SD. So, I guess I should stop using that

+1

[Virtus]

53 minutes ago, lct said:

+1

As a matter of fact I think this was a bit of an afterthought. From what I researched, this "type of saving" (JPG on IN + DNG on SD) was added during firmware 1.3.0.0. So, what I suspect was happening is that they did it to accomodate users request for this feature but for some reason they made a bit of a mistake and forgot to add the correct option for deletion. Is just my suspicion (I have no way to prove it). But some time it happens in software development. So, it would be great if somebody can bring this to their Software development department attention.

 

[Photoworks]

17 hours ago, Virtus said:

Hi maxpower,

as a matter of fact, yes, I am using that storage configuration. JPG on IN and DNG on SD. So, I guess I should stop using that and, instead, I should use SD, and IN as an overflow. I understand that having the two files on different units may be a bit more time consuming for the system but it shouldn't be such a huge effort. It would have been nice at least to have it mentioned somewhere in the manual. Even though it seems ridiculous. If the operating system is able to write the two files on the two separate storage units fast enough when I'm taking the photo, it should be able to delete them as well. After all, deleting is basically rewriting the file label in the file system. What I'm trying to say is that I know that the speed of writing on the internal storage is a tad faster than on the SD but, as I said, if it can do it properly once, than it should be able to do it the second time without issues. Thank you again for your answer.

There were already a few changes in the firmware, which is why you don't find it in the first manual.

you can contact support Leica for suggestions.

Personally is you split them into 2 drives, I would consider them different files.

The next question is if you are doing mirroring IN memory and SD, what should happen then?

 

[Virtus]

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36 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

There were already a few changes in the firmware, which is why you don't find it in the first manual.

you can contact support Leica for suggestions.

Personally is you split them into 2 drives, I would consider them different files.

The next question is if you are doing mirroring IN memory and SD, what should happen then?

 

"There were already a few changes in the firmware, which is why you don't find it in the first manual."  - It happens that I used to work in software dev and the professional standard (particularly for commercial software) is that when you upgrade the code you also upgrade the manual or any other documentation.

"Personally is you split them into 2 drives, I would consider them different files." - You are right but when I delete it on the camera I'm not given the perception I'm deleting "a file" but that I'm deleting "an image". It's a differnt paradigm. And the operating system on the camera needs to be consistent. (for example, when I'm changing a feature I'm not manually editing a config file on the camera, although probably that's what's happening behind the curtain. - So, if we handle "features and objects" on camera we should not even talk about files until we download the "image".) IMHO.

"The next question is if you are doing mirroring IN memory and SD, what should happen then?" - I'm not quite following. What exactly do you mean by "mirroring IN memory and SD"? Are you refering to the process of "backup memory. IN => SD" ? 

Thank you.

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, Virtus said:

"There were already a few changes in the firmware, which is why you don't find it in the first manual."  - It happens that I used to work in software dev and the professional standard (particularly for commercial software) is that when you upgrade the code you also upgrade the manual or any other documentation.

Well, Leica has the updates in a PDF of the update. I never understood why, but if you only have an older version installed the change manual would explain features that are not included in an older version of the firmware.

 

2 hours ago, Virtus said:

"The next question is if you are doing mirroring IN memory and SD, what should happen then?" - I'm not quite following. What exactly do you mean by "mirroring IN memory and SD"? Are you refering to the process of "backup memory. IN => SD" ? 

 

yes! would that not be 2 files, or 4? are they the same image? when you delete one, should you delete all 4?

 

There was a change request in the past before you would see both images from the card and IN together.

Personally, I don't care either way, I never delete anything in the camera.

What I find useful is the option to star images, when you play back images and come across one that you like, you can click the little bottom on the top of the camera to ⭐.

the selection is carried over to the FOTOS app, and Computer software.

[Jeff S]

On 3/27/2023 at 3:09 PM, Virtus said:

Of course, I understand you may be able to delete it when you browse the folder thru a computer but it's cumbersome. 

 

Not your question, but fwiw I feel the opposite.  Deleting in PP software is quick and simple, while deleting in camera is unnecessary at best, distracting and dangerous (accidental deletion) at worst. I rarely even delete in post, preferring to learn from mistakes and provide the opportunity to revisit shots at a later time (unless something obvious like a blank frame, etc). Storage is cheap. I’d be fine without even having a delete button on camera. (I also never shoot JPEG, but that’s another discussion.)

Diff’rent strokes…

Jeff

[J S H]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Not your question, but fwiw I feel the opposite.  Deleting in PP software is quick and simple, while deleting in camera is unnecessary at best, distracting and dangerous (accidental deletion) at worst. I rarely even delete in post, preferring to learn from mistakes and provide the opportunity to revisit shots at a later time (unless something obvious like a blank frame, etc). Storage is cheap. I’d be fine without even having a delete button on camera. (I also never shoot JPEG, but that’s another discussion.)

Diff’rent strokes…

Jeff

This is how I see it as well, although I will delete in post. Best practice in a professional workflow has always been to avoid deleting in camera. RAW only for me, no need for JPEG. I transfer all images to the computer (directly into LR) and make a 2nd backup copy of all images immediately. The backup happens concurrently for me, as the images are being copied to the computer/LR, they are also being copied to the backup disk. I format the memory card when I put it back in the camera, or in the case of the M11, I format the internal memory after all backups have occurred.

I delete images that I don't intend to use from within LR, but I still keep ALL images on my backup disk(s). There have been a few instances (maybe once a year) where I have needed to go back and find an image that I had deleted from within LR, but it was still there on the original backup. Sometimes things come up when you need an image from a shoot that showed something the client requested after the fact, or captured some other variation that wasn't in the initial scope of assignment. 

[Virtus]

4 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Not your question, but fwiw I feel the opposite.  Deleting in PP software is quick and simple, while deleting in camera is unnecessary at best, distracting and dangerous (accidental deletion) at worst. I rarely even delete in post, preferring to learn from mistakes and provide the opportunity to revisit shots at a later time (unless something obvious like a blank frame, etc). Storage is cheap. I’d be fine without even having a delete button on camera. (I also never shoot JPEG, but that’s another discussion.)

Diff’rent strokes…

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I understand and I appreciate your answer. And, indeed, the origin of this issue was me doing some weird shots with the cap on my lens - Duh! beginers mistake! (although I used to shoot film on my mother's Zorki 1 50 years ago - but that's a different century.) Anyways, that's the origin of this observation. So, I deleted the "mistake" only to discover that when imported to Lightroom, the "mistake" was not entirely deleted. That was a confusing and a bit scary experience. And, it is a bit inconsistent, if, as others pointed out, this behavior is present only when choosing this kind of storage configuration. And, don't get me wrong. I'm not a big fan of "deleting on the camera" myself. But if I'm doing it I want to know what I'm doing. Regarding deleting, as a practice, I'd say I agree with you 50%. I don't delete easily anything. I too like to learn from mistakes. On the other hand, some errors are basically useless, and the fact that today digital photgraphy gives us thousands of photos so easily, I may end up with such a clog where it's easy to lose the good things in a sea of vanilla. On the other hand this brings up the important aspect of taxonomy and organizing your files in the post storage. An entire science if you are a bit OCD.  

Edited March 29, 2023 by Virtus

[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, Virtus said:

Hi Jeff,

I understand and I appreciate your answer. And, indeed, the origin of this issue was me doing some weird shots with the cap on my lens - Duh! beginers mistake! (although I used to shoot film on my mother's Zorki 1 50 years ago - but that's a different century.) Anyways, that's the origin of this observation. So, I deleted the "mistake" only to discover that when imported to Lightroom, the "mistake" was not entirely deleted. That was a confusing and a bit scary experience. And, it is a bit inconsistent, if, as others pointed out, this behavior is present only when choosing this kind of storage configuration. And, don't get me wrong. I'm not a big fan of "deleting on the camera" myself. But if I'm doing it I want to know what I'm doing. Regarding deleting, as a practice, I'd say I agree with you 50%. I don't delete easily anything. I too like to learn from mistakes. On the other hand, some errors are basically useless, and the fact that today digital photgraphy gives us thousands of photos so easily, I may end up with such a clog where it's easy to lose the good things in a sea of vanilla. On the other hand this brings up the important aspect of taxonomy and organizing your files in the post storage. An entire science if you are a bit OCD.  

Well, if you don’t delete in camera, you avoid the issue leading to this thread, as well as any other accidental deletions. I guess the part I don’t understand is why you find deleting in post cumbersome.  I also would delete blank files due to lens cap issue, etc, and this would be obvious upon import and would take mere seconds to delete in post (even multiple files with one click). And no time wasted in the field. My file structures and organization are kept very simple…unchanged from initially transitioning to digital in 2009.
 

Whatever works; workflows vary by individual.

Jeff

[elmars]

I think the camera does exactly what it should. When you are in picture playback mode, it always shows the picture from a particular memory: IN or SD. Since you are deleting from the picture playback mode, it would be wrong to also delete pictures in the memory other than the one being displayed from.

I use IN=SD. The internal memory is my backup. If I accidentally delete too much from the SD card, I still have the backup.

 

[Virtus]

23 minutes ago, elmars said:

I think the camera does exactly what it should. When you are in picture playback mode, it always shows the picture from a particular memory: IN or SD. Since you are deleting from the picture playback mode, it would be wrong to also delete pictures in the memory other than the one being displayed from.

I use IN=SD. The internal memory is my backup. If I accidentally delete too much from the SD card, I still have the backup.

 

Elmars, I'm afraid you misunderstand the camera. When I configure storage as JPG on IN and DNG on SD, the IN is NOT the backup. It's just creating the image in two files. This is NOT the backup process. Configuring the IN as backup is another kettle of fish. You misunderstand the system.

[elmars]

I understood that. But there are people who make their backup with JPG fils, because their SD has more GB than IN or for another reason.

I see Your point but I think There are different interests and workflows. 

[Virtus]

14 minutes ago, elmars said:

I understood that. But there are people who make their backup with JPG fils, because their SD has more GB than IN or for another reason.

I see Your point but I think There are different interests and workflows. 

Understand what you are saying, but that's why we have terminology and... words. To not make confusions. Just saying.

BTW, like your website. Gives me ideas...

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Virtus

[M11 for me]

Why not deleting files by using the icon in the first overview menu. When using that you will format the storage and the menu is done in a way that you can choose which storage you want to format (internal or storage card).

In my workflow on my computer I start importing my files into Lightroom. After I have a backup done on my computer I format the SD card always in the camera. If needed I format as well the internal storage. 

One might wonder why we have that formatting icon so dominant on the overview menu of the camera. That has to do with the fact that many technicians prefer to format a storage rather than just deleting the data. There are tons of articles about that subject: What is better: Detete data or format storage? In the case of the M11 that question should be clearly answered: As we have that special icon we should use it. As mentioned above you can then choose which storage to format: Either the Sd-card with your DNG or your internal storage with your JPG.

[elmars]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb M11 for me:

Why not deleting files by using the icon in the first overview menu.

Good idea. 

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[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, Virtus said:

issue was me doing some weird shots with the cap on my lens

I lens a long time ago not to have any front lens caps. Get a filter or and lens shade and get shooting. all my M lenses are like that!

[Virtus]

8 hours ago, M11 for me said:

Why not deleting files by using the icon in the first overview menu.

I think your question/answer is a logical fallacy in this context. My whole point was not about what method of deletion I should use, or if I should even delete on the camera or not. This was not the point of my topic. My question was a very simple and clear one: why the application on the camera is conveying a misleading idea of deletion. And, if that's the case, why is not documented properly. Just that and nothing else.