M10 monochrome and lenses from the early 2000's

[patrickdumont]

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Good afternoon,

Not been on this forum for a long while. OK I have gone more and more intrigued by the M10 Monochrom as a complement to my M7 analog. I see that many experiment with older lenses on a specific thread however that seems to be focused on real vintage ones.  I currently have 4 lenses I purchased in the early 2000's (2004 around)
- 21mm elmarit asph
- 35 mm asph non fle
- 50mm summicron
- 75mm summilux

Would any of these be seen as a not really advisable coupled to the M10 monochrom?

Regards

Patrick

[dpitt]

I think all of these will do fine on the M10. If you compare them to the old vintage lenses they will look modern. Both ASPH ones have a more modern look compared to vintage lenses, while your Summicron 50 has the same look as the v4 Summicron 50 from the early 80s.

You can work with all of these by choosing the correct profile manually on the M10, although I would advise to have them 6-bit coded for convenience, starting with the 21 and 35 mm because they really need the correct profile to perform well.

[patrickdumont]

Thank you for your response. This is good news. I had not really thought about the 6 bits coding. It surely would make things more convenient. I do not quite follow your comment on the profile: do you mean if one shoots jpeg ( which i do not)?

 

regards

 

Patrick

[adan]

Briefly

Profiles and 6-bit coding - the compact M lenses especially from the pre-digital era (2006) and especially wider than 50mm, did not play well with digital sensors' "architecture" or structure, leading to vignetting, and worse, color vignetting problems. Blue or cyan or purple-red stains around the edges and in the corners of the pictures.

That problem will affect either jpegs or raw/.DNG pictures.

Leica was and is able to correct these image problems in the digital M cameras, provided the camera "knows" which lens (focal length, optical type, and approximate aperture used) was used. Thus Leica provided two means to do the exact same job - inform the camera which lens to correct for.

A "bar code" of sorts engraved on the back as 6 black or white dots, which the camera has a sensor to read - OR - a list of Leica lenses (in general, post 1980) in the camera menus (menu profiles), from which the user can tag the lens in use (if the lens does not have the 6-bit coding installed).

I.E. for practical purposes, menu profiles = 6-bit coding. The coding, if installed, is just faster and more automated.

And since the image problems they fix are primarily in the color rendering, that aspect of the process is not an issue with a Monochrom camera.  Even if completely unidentified, at worst unknown lenses may produce a bit more regular vignetting (darker corners) than on film.

The coding and/or menu profiles have the side benefit of identifying the lens used in the digital picture files' metadata, so that you can know the lens used when editing later. Might help distinguish 50 from 75mm shots after the fact on the computer, if you need/want to know that.

Of note, I use a lens set including all of yours (or even earlier versions:  21 Elmarit pre-ASPH, 35mm Summicron pre-ASPH, 50 Summicron from 1970(!), and Leica 135mm f/4.0 from 1969(!)) - with no problems at all on the M10M. I've have coding added to the 21 and 35, and use the menu list to ID the older, uncodable 50 and 135.

Also of note, almost all LEICA-made M lenses from 1980 until 2006, built without 6-bit coding, can be factory upgraded - for a price.  it is possible to code one's own lenses by various means, but that's for a separate thread

Edited March 21, 2023 by adan

[patrickdumont]

Thank you Adan, this makes complete sense now. So having the 6 bits added to the 21mm and 35 mm seems logical. 

[Jon Warwick]

On 3/19/2023 at 5:34 PM, patrickdumont said:

Good afternoon,

Not been on this forum for a long while. OK I have gone more and more intrigued by the M10 Monochrom as a complement to my M7 analog. I see that many experiment with older lenses on a specific thread however that seems to be focused on real vintage ones.  I currently have 4 lenses I purchased in the early 2000's (2004 around)
- 21mm elmarit asph
- 35 mm asph non fle
- 50mm summicron
- 75mm summilux

Would any of these be seen as a not really advisable coupled to the M10 monochrom?

Regards

Patrick

I hope it’s advisable! I very recently purchased a 50 Summicron v5 for my M10M, mainly for a slightly more gentle and less contrasty look than naturally comes off my most modern lenses (Voigtlander 35 and 50 APO Lanthars).  I used to own the 50 Summicron, so know its characteristics well, and expect it to be a really good combo on the Monochrom. The sensor’s acuity is so precise that a less aggressively “precise” lens is potentially a good thing for many subjects. 

Like you, my other Leica is the M7. For film, I go in the opposite direction, there I prefer the very high acuity modern APO lenses, given their rendering balances well with the relative softness of film (compared to a digital sensor) IMHO.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[patrickdumont]

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Hey Jon, to be perfectly honest my reflexion around the M monochrom stems from the fact that in 2022, once covid was over I no longer  walked around extensively  in London, for my shoots. Business travel was back on, the M7 did only a few rolls whereas my digital side (non Leica)  went into the multiple 1000s. I found that I was missing (though not always) the rangefinder experience. For this, a digital Leica is tempting especially a monochrom. 

[Jon Warwick]

On 3/24/2023 at 6:05 PM, patrickdumont said:

Hey Jon, to be perfectly honest my reflexion around the M monochrom stems from the fact that in 2022, once covid was over I no longer  walked around extensively  in London, for my shoots. Business travel was back on, the M7 did only a few rolls whereas my digital side (non Leica)  went into the multiple 1000s. I found that I was missing (though not always) the rangefinder experience. For this, a digital Leica is tempting especially a monochrom. 

I have found there's a lot to be said about the ease of transporting a small M and also enjoying the rangefinder - and it has the flexibility of course of adding a Visoflex, which i'm about to do for off-centre focusing and for composition benefits. The Monochrom (M10M in my case) has been my favourite digital camera to date. The reason i say this is how I react to the Monochrom files' image quality, it seems the more "filmic" ("less digital") in terms of rendering compared to any other digital camera I've used (the latter including all the Ms, SL2, GFX100S).  I still don't think the Monochrom's highlights are as pleasant as film in very harsh light (maybe that's improved in the next iteration if it appears?), but IMHO the tonality off the Monochrom sensor just sings in more neutral light.

[ramarren]

On 3/19/2023 at 1:34 PM, patrickdumont said:

Not been on this forum for a long while. OK I have gone more and more intrigued by the M10 Monochrom as a complement to my M7 analog. I see that many experiment with older lenses on a specific thread however that seems to be focused on real vintage ones.  I currently have 4 lenses I purchased in the early 2000's (2004 around)
- 21mm elmarit asph
- 35 mm asph non fle
- 50mm summicron
- 75mm summilux

Would any of these be seen as a not really advisable coupled to the M10 monochrom?

Hi Patrick, 

I suspect how well these lenses perform will depend more on your own perspectives and desires than on the camera's absolute performance. They'll all work fine on the M10-M, what they produce is largely up to what you like or dislike about them and how you render the image files they create. 

My own lens kit is pretty varied with M-mount lenses from a current CV 10mm to a 1960 Hektor 135mm. I had my 1972 'Lux 35mm coded, picked up a previous-to-current-series 28 ASPH, have a just-past the coded time start 50 'Cron, 75 Summarit, and a Wetzlar produced M-Rokkor 90mm f/4, a new CV 21/3.5. Never mind the R lenses, plus various Nikon and Pentax lenses I use with an adapter and the Visoflex 020. They almost all work very nicely with no messing about, and I use B&W filters to modify the tonal relationships in my photos as well (usually green or orange depending on scene) just as I do with film B&W. 

The M10-M takes them all in stride ... One thing I know from using it and comparing with my Leica M4-2 B&W film work is that the M10-M is remarkably even handed with most all of the lenses I use on it, excepting perhaps a CV Color-Skopar 28/3.5 that works much better on film than on any digital. Each lens has its particular character and I enjoy that, and I've made satisfying presentation prints from all of them. 

The M10-M is the camera that I've come to feel as my go to choice, to the degree that nearly all my other digitals (and half of my other film cameras) are tacitly up for sale now. It's just the most inviting camera to carry and work with, being simple and sophisticated all at once, and never fails to produce results I like no matter what oddball lens I put on it. 

Good luck in your choices! 

G

[patrickdumont]

Good evening,

This was an old question of mine, however it found an answer. Just to say I made the jump and have complemented my M7 with the M10M. I will need to be really familiar with it before I can use it on a project. That's the way it is I guess. How long did you guys take before being really confident in shooting for specific result?

Cheers

Patrick

[ramarren]

For me, two sessions and i felt 100% confident with it. For me: I add a green filter most of the time to get the gray tone feel i like.

G

[patrickdumont]

Thank you Ramarren. While I tried in different situations, I am still not too confident into how to expose. Sooooo many highlights are clipped even compensating -2. 
some less contrasty scenes come out lovely though. I find this very tricky for now. hope to learn these ropes quickly.

a more successful pic from my first trials

 

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[ramarren]

I dunno ...

I just meter as I normally would and adjust as my eye suggests. I don't see much clipping, at least none that I don't expect from the scene situation. I almost never need to use negative compensation; I mostly have to add exposure for scenes that fool the meter into underexposing. 

Nearly any clear day/sunlit outdoor scene will have a dynamic range larger than any film or digital sensor can handle. The point of proper exposure, to me, is to choose what's going to fall out of range such that it isn't important to the scene. 

G

[AceVentura1986]

On 3/22/2023 at 5:51 PM, Jon Warwick said:

I hope it’s advisable! I very recently purchased a 50 Summicron v5 for my M10M, mainly for a slightly more gentle and less contrasty look than naturally comes off my most modern lenses (Voigtlander 35 and 50 APO Lanthars).  I used to own the 50 Summicron, so know its characteristics well, and expect it to be a really good combo on the Monochrom. The sensor’s acuity is so precise that a less aggressively “precise” lens is potentially a good thing for many subjects. 

Like you, my other Leica is the M7. For film, I go in the opposite direction, there I prefer the very high acuity modern APO lenses, given their rendering balances well with the relative softness of film (compared to a digital sensor) IMHO.

 

On 3/14/2024 at 8:11 PM, patrickdumont said:

Thank you Ramarren. While I tried in different situations, I am still not too confident into how to expose. Sooooo many highlights are clipped even compensating -2. 
some less contrasty scenes come out lovely though. I find this very tricky for now. hope to learn these ropes quickly.

a more successful pic from my first trials

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I bought the M10M in December and love it. I usually have my 2000 vintage 50mm Summicron mounted on it though I also have a variety of CV lenses too.  I find that at f/4 and smaller, the 50mm is tack sharp. Fully open at f/2 it’s a bit soft but not unpleasantly so. The softness at f/2 is more apparent at full rez in the M10M than my old M9M just because of the increased resolution. When compared at the same resolution the appearance is similar between the two. 

As for exposure, my experience w the M10M is that its DNG files will easily take 5 stops of pushing in Lightroom. Given that, your best bet is to underexpose a bit and correct in post. This will have the effect of preserving your highlights, something that can otherwise be easily blown out. Your goal in-camera should be to preserve the highlights — all else is a 2 minute correction in Lightroom.