Trading M10R Black Paint for SL2-S — Convince me otherwise (or not!)

[gotium]

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56 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I do tend to agree that M lenses are not my preferred way to work on the SL cameras. I think M cameras do a better job with M lenses unless you are doing slow, considered work where it is easy to focus and compose with some leisure. The focus is more accurate in the SL cameras, but I agree that if you enlarge the screen to focus, you lose the overall composition. I do like how panasonic implements this, where there is a box in the middle of the screen with the magnified area, but you can still see the frame edges. I think that works better, but still not as good as an M. In terms of lenses, I found that the Sigma DG DN lenses are in a lot of cases even sharper than M lenses, other than the most recent vintage. At least this was the case in comparing the 24mm 3.5 to the 21mm Super Elmar...the former being a 550 dollar lens, which at least in my test was sharper edge to edge than the 3500 dollar Leica version. The Leica was crisper in the center, however. I also found the 35mm f2 was quite close to the 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE, though it is not as good at f2. The 105mm Sigma macro is as sharp as my 90mm APO Summicron M, and has similarly negligible color fringing. It is also sharper close up and focuses to 1 to 1 as a macro lens...the downside is the larger size, though it is not that heavy (300g heavier). In any case, the crop of lenses on L mount seems to range from "surprisingly good for the price" to "best lens of its focal length ever made". I have not yet found a bad lens. I am not fond of the Sigma 45mm, but it is, all told, still a good lens. 

This is interesting, coming from a fine-art / landscape photographer. 

In fact, the two Sigma contemporary lenses I know impressed me not only with sharpness but also with color correction. The Sigma 24/2 (mounted on an fp) I found to be sharper than my 28 lux (on an M11) but also remarkably aberration-free. I see a lot of purple fringing and also green and magenta drifts in the OOF areas with the 28 lux (even if I really do like the "character")- I see none of that with the Sigma. And I think the Sigma 65/2 is as sharp or sharper than my 50/2 APO at all apertures, also with excellent color control.

But I have trouble building them into a system - I'd like something like the SL2 but SMALL. 

Thank you for your take, including on the 35/2 - I'd discounted that as I'd not heard much good about it...

Edited March 11, 2023 by gotium

[jakontil]

apology to jump on the discussion, however i couldnt advice much, but one thing im certain, if u sell your M10r you will regret it after and reacquiring won't be easy and near impossible

as stated by some, get the SL2 by other means if it's helpful for the business, and treat your m10r bp like a cuban cigar, use for pleasure 

[JamieDumont]

Wow, this thread took off whilst I was gone! I was too busy playing with (or not) the SL2-S that I've had for the weekend. I'll go through the comments and then sum up my thoughts after 48 hours with the potential usurper.

On 3/11/2023 at 1:55 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

But if the money is tight, you are going to get substantially more money out of a private sale than a trade in.

Agreed. It was never my intention to trade in, even with the good dealers. If I were to let the M10R go I would at least be patient enough to hold out for a good buyer. I got valuations and trade-in quotes just to gauge the market, which was worse than I thought.

On 3/11/2023 at 6:18 PM, Jeff S said:

They also offer 80% of market value on trades, so if someone had traded in either one of these cameras, the seller would have received roughly $7k toward new purchase.

There's a disparity between US and UK Leica dealers then. The best offer I've had back thus far for the M10R in as-new condition was £3880.

On 3/11/2023 at 1:55 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

I almost always buy used if I can, unless I am in a situation where reclaiming the VAT is cheaper than the used value.

I'm VAT registered which quite often makes a new item the same price as used options. Most Leica dealers in the UK seem to price used examples as retail - 20% unless there the condition warrants further reduction. Being a business, buyer new almost always makes sense as I get a brand new item, the new warranty that goes with it for the price of spending an extra 20% for at most three months.

On 3/11/2023 at 3:47 PM, gotium said:

but I found it too big, too big, and too big.

I have no qualms about large cameras. I've got large hands and I find the grip much more comfortable on the SL2-S (M require a funny pinch) and am quite a big chap so the weight makes little difference. The size does play into my conclusion below though...

On 3/11/2023 at 4:42 PM, trickness said:

Used SL2-S are going for about $3300 USD. As a straight trade with a BP M10-R, you're getting hosed.

Indeed. I got one offer back from MPB and a member of their team emailed me directly because it was a high value trade to ask how I found the quote and if they could make it better. I pointed out that their offer of a straight swap for my M10R BP with 35mm Summilux FLE II for a used SL2-S with used 35 APO was not just low, but offensively low. Justifiable (as it turns out) but not what I had in mind.

On 3/11/2023 at 4:45 PM, Al Brown said:

Leica Infidelity Department and Black Paint Police that from March 1st, 2023 they are persecuting each individual that sells his/her BP camera, even if it goes toward another Leica product.

I can reveal that in that case, I won't be bundled into the back of a van anytime soon. After using the SL2-S over the weekend I'll be keeping the M10RBP, and won't be looking to buy into the SL system in the future.

I tried a little product photography Friday night, using it tethered to Capture One. The results were very good.

I tried taking pictures of my fast moving four year old son. The autofocus was much better than I was led to believe, and just as usable as the supposedly superior Canon R5 which I used last summer.

I tried taking it to my usual Saturday haunt — a beer cafe at my favourite brewery. It's a small, local affair and we're regular faces, and I've done some documentary work for them. Many of the others there are camera geeks too. This was the first time that I felt out of place with a camera...

When I did reportage for an ultramarathon in the summer, I was using a Canon R5 and 28-70 f2 (big tank of a lens). It was all I could rent on short notice having dropped my M10 two days before the race. I tried to do my usual, candid shots, up close at the 28-35mm end of the zoom and 9/10 I got spotted. Unless I wanted a photo of the back of someones head, I would get clocked as soon as I raised the camera. It was like a siren was going off.

The SL2-S was a similar experience at this beer cafe. Whether it's because I pre-focus with the M and spend less time with the camera raised, I generally don't having a problem remaining discrete; but I did with the SL2-S. I've often thought the weight that people place in the discretion of small rangefinders like the Ms (or Fuji-alikes) is a touch cliche and that most cameras (short of a smartphone) garner as much attention as any other. This weekend is proof that this isn't the case.

The SL2-S didn't even get an outing today at a friends and family birthday. The M2 came instead.

The 35 APO was truly the star of the show. Optically, it is flawless according to the photos I took. I thought my 35 Lux FLE was brilliant, but the APO is something else. It might prompt 35 APO purchase down the line if the M counterpart is even half as good.

The SL2-S itself was very good. Pretty much as expected based on reviews and my past experience with the 601. It's far more capable than I had been led to believe but oddly frustrated me. All the irritations that I've suffered at the hands of AF settings, ISO, exposure compensation, etc being in a menu immediately resurfaced. I don't think about any of these things using the M.

Halfway through the weekend I contemplated a cheaper, backup system with AF like a used Fuji X-T3 with a prime or something, but promptly decided it would be wasted money because I'd be just as frustrated by it. Better to spend the ~£1500 on a couple of diopters for the M2 and M10R and drop the rest on film! Unfortunately for better or worse, I am an M photographer.

Thank you all for your comments and support. It was much appreciated. I would now like to draw this weekends GAS-victim meeting to a close... 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by JamieDumont
Additional point.

[chris7273]

What about the Q2  ? 

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...Unfortunately for better or worse, I am an M photographer...

There are worse things a person could be, you know. 

I have next to no need for autofocus; my Q2 fills that need when it comes up.  My M cameras do everything else that I need, even though they are manual focus.

[JamieDumont]

On 3/14/2023 at 11:32 AM, chris7273 said:

What about the Q2  ? 

 

22 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

There are worse things a person could be, you know. 

I have next to no need for autofocus; my Q2 fills that need when it comes up.  My M cameras do everything else that I need, even though they are manual focus.

In time a Q/Q2/Q2 Mono/Q3(?) may be useful at some point (AF, macro, weather-sealing whilst still being small) but for now I'll stick with the M10R day to day. The M2 took the opportunity to break yesterday, so it'll likely be off to Camera Works for some TLC.

[newtoleica]

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The BP finish is beautiful. I have an M10-P+M7 so similar set up to you. Also remember trying to do street photography with a Nikon D3+24-70 f2.8 AFS before switching to the Leica M9.... I do have a small AF digital camera that I picked up used for £1400, a Sony RX1Rm2. Smaller than the Q and 35mm though it lacks image stabilisation and it's not as nice to handle. a Q2 would be an extra £3000 so I've refrained....

[Herr Barnack]

My first Leica was in 2003 - a black paint MP with a black paint 50 Summilux pre-ASPH (AKA the Millennium 50mm Summilux. 

After many years, I ended up needing to trade both in to help finance my first digital camera of any kind, the M240.  I needed to go digital but i still miss my BP MP and 50 'lux.  😢

 

[Torpille]

The M10r and the Summilux 35mm are the best of the best.
Have you tried a magnifying glass to help focussing?
Then yes a sl is very good but bulky especially with the Apo sl.
One option is to keep the m10r and 
I would rather go for a q2 or even better a cl which for a very low cost will allow you to take everywhere with you a compact autofocus body to which you can join a tl18 or 23mm
And use it as a second camera when you need it .

[costa43]

I say go for what feels right, instinct is usually the way in my experience. like others have mentioned though, this particular body will probably develop a cult status and the price will continue to rise. It is very much sought after so I’m surprised the trade in value is low, maybe selling it on the 2nd hand market will be a better way to go. (I’m also looking for one but there are none in the UK in the condition I would want)

Best of luck with your decision making.