Will Sony A7xx terminate Leica SL, SL2, or SLx? Will Fujifilm GFX terminate Leica Sx?

[Einst_Stein]

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Both Sony and Fujifilm GFX are shining in more advanced sensor and AF technology, to mention the least. More portable, more feature rich, etc. The price are much lower too.

Is Leica  in trouble?

 

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[jaapv]

No -as these "advantages" are far beyond the needs of 95% of photographers.But interface, "feel", durability, lens quality, etc. will always appeal.

[Einst_Stein]

I too do not care the “advanced sensor”. I have XV (and Doux 4, Digilux 4.3j. The color rendition far exceed Sony A72 ( sold) and XE3 (my spare camera, never got a chance on stage yet).

The portability may still be a strength. Most important is price. Here Leica is always the weak spot.

Somehow, Leica managed to overcome the price issue. Leica’s image quality is a magic!  Is this widely agreed?

[dpitt]

What else is new? Leica always looked like it was lagging behind compared to the competition. When I got my M8, I was laughed at with de poor ISO performance compared to my friends Canon 5D, while it was at the same price then. He has since then spent a lot of money upgrading to each newer model and now he can boast using ISO 100.000. But I still have to see the first image from him that looks like it was shot by my M8. In the end, for me it matters how a camera performs at base ISO. All the rest is a bonus. The same goes for the other perks the competition is using as selling points.

Of course, if you really need these features, like fast AF or video, there is no workaround. Other than that it is how the pictures look what matters to me.

Edited February 24, 2023 by dpitt

[Stuart Richardson]

2021/2022 was Leica's most profitable year ever, and it is a hundred year old company, so I think we can safely say no. Leica is not lagging behind the competition in ways that are meaningful to its user base. It still produces among the very best lenses ever made for consumer cameras, among the best interfaces, designs and build quality for their cameras. They of course have challenges, and if you were to look only at the S system, then yes, they would be in a lot of trouble. But Leica's success has largely been carried by the M and Q systems, which have no real equivalents among other companies. I think nearly all of us wish Leica's prices were lower, and there are a huge swath of enthusiasts who like to bash Leica for their pricing and cost to benefit ratio, but clearly it is not affecting Leica's bottom line.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[sebben]

The thing is that all equipment is now good enough. What you and how you point it at things matter the most. Exceptional photographs are generally created in the mind of photographers well before any picture is taken. This often requires some of the following. Persistence, self motivation, talent, research, logistics, an idea or concept, crew to execute.

Once all that is all said and done the equipment is just a minor piece of a much bigger picture. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by sebben

[Stuart Richardson]

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I think you can also turn the argument around somewhat, and say, for example: When are the Japanese camera companies going to catch up to Leica's colors, lens quality, interface design and build quality? Or on a technical front, when are they going to equal Leica's multishot quality. I have both the Panasonic S1 and the Leica SL2, and the Leica version of multishot is better. This is not to bash them...there are many fantastic Japanese camera companies. I have yet to see one that has as good color as the S or SL cameras, however. And I see a ton of them as a printer when my clients bring them in. This is really all driven by price I think. If Leica did not cost so much more, they would be praised by everyone for offering a different emphasis than their competitors. Back when the M8 and M9 were out, a Canon 5D did really give them a run for their money when it came to technology, though the M's offered unique usage and very good color and sharpness. Remember AA filters? Back when I was printing and everyone was shooting 5D's, all their files looked like mush. These days, as Seb says, there really is not such a meaningful technological difference unless you are talking about AF and AF tracking. Leica is indeed a long way from Sony on that front. But the other differences are much more subtle, and they tend to be at the extremes.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[jaapv]

I agree. with your post; but I think Multishot mode is exactly where Panasonic beats Leica, that is what I pick up my S5 for. For a number of reasons: ease of use ( a big wheel on top of the camera), max 20 FPS @ 4K, Pre-release (the burst actually starts one second before you press the shutter button) and automatic focus stacking (saves hours on the computer) 

[LocalHero1953]

Are we talking about 'multishot' as in burst mode or as in multishot to get higher res images?

[Stuart Richardson]

I was talking about the multishot setting that uses IBIS to stitch a higher resolution file. In my experience the Leica version has fewer artifacts. It is, however, super annoying that as soon as you move the camera even slightly a big popup in the middle of the screen tells you the camera is unstable. This means it is kind of impossible to compose with that mode on. 

[mgrayson3]

Despite the loud and constant insistence from its fans, the A7’s have an extremely bad track record of exterminating Nikon, Canon, or Leica. 

[Einst_Stein]

Sony A7R2/has a very attractive specs on paper, particularly with the third party’s adapter to take Contax N/645 lenses. Unfortunately I cannot manage its color and the image rendering.

The other problem is in the third party lens adapter. Contax has 6V power system while Sony has 7.2V. The third party adapter does not handle the voltage difference or impedance limiting properly, it ended damaged my Contax N 24-85mm lens.

I heard the third party lens adapter for contax 645 to Fujifilm GFX (from the same maker) still works similar in voltage/power/impedance. A friend working in camera repair told me, be careful if the AF on the adapted camera works faster than on the native camera. Maybe newer version will fix the problem, If they learn from Leica how Leica S-adapter handle this. 

Fujifilm XE3 is much better in coloring, though still not the same as Leica XV or M yet. I think its history as a film company makes a big difference. I am sure GFX will carry its tradition. Together with the optics, besides color/image handling in FW and SW, will differentiate it from Leica. 

[Guest]

I believe the Leica S system in its current form (mirror, OVF, mount, rudimentary AF) is already "terminated" as you put it -- from what I heard, the very low production S3 is the last of its kind. That actually might have something to do with Fuji (and in a minor role, Hasselblad).

Re advanced features, a lot of Leica folk are hybrid shooters, meaning they have a second system, either for extra reach, or tracking AF capabilities, or what have you. 

[ynp]

2 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

 

The other problem is in the third party lens adapter. Contax has 6V power system while Sony has 7.2V. The third party adapter does not handle the voltage difference or impedance limiting properly, it ended damaged my Contax N 24-85mm lens.

I heard the third party lens adapter for contax 645 to Fujifilm GFX (from the same maker) still works similar in voltage/power/impedance. A friend working in camera repair told me, be careful if the AF on the adapted camera works faster than on the native camera. Maybe newer version will fix the problem, If they learn from Leica how Leica S-adapter handle this. 

Interesting. This might explain why my Contax 140mm lens was damaged when I used it with the F..ger adapter on my GFX50r.

[Einst_Stein]

31 minutes ago, ynp said:

Interesting. This might explain why my Contax 140mm lens was damaged when I used it with the F..ger adapter on my GFX50r.

[dpitt]

13 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

2021/2022 was Leica's most profitable year ever, and it is a hundred year old company, so I think we can safely say no. Leica is not lagging behind the competition in ways that are meaningful to its user base. It still produces among the very best lenses ever made for consumer cameras, among the best interfaces, designs and build quality for their cameras. They of course have challenges, and if you were to look only at the S system, then yes, they would be in a lot of trouble. But Leica's success has largely been carried by the M and Q systems, which have no real equivalents among other companies. I think nearly all of us wish Leica's prices were lower, and there are a huge swath of enthusiasts who like to bash Leica for their pricing and cost to benefit ratio, but clearly it is not affecting Leica's bottom line.

If this was answering my post about Leica looking like it lags behind, the keyword here was 'looking'. It seems like it is lagging behind but in area's that really matter, they are miles ahead. These area's however are not always as easy to quantify and so it is hard to convince the main public which is often just comparing figures like amount of MP or number of shots per second.

13 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think you can also turn the argument around somewhat, and say, for example: When are the Japanese camera companies going to catch up to Leica's colors, lens quality, interface design and build quality? Or on a technical front, when are they going to equal Leica's multishot quality. I have both the Panasonic S1 and the Leica SL2, and the Leica version of multishot is better. This is not to bash them...there are many fantastic Japanese camera companies. I have yet to see one that has as good color as the S or SL cameras, however. And I see a ton of them as a printer when my clients bring them in. This is really all driven by price I think. If Leica did not cost so much more, they would be praised by everyone for offering a different emphasis than their competitors. Back when the M8 and M9 were out, a Canon 5D did really give them a run for their money when it came to technology, though the M's offered unique usage and very good color and sharpness. Remember AA filters? Back when I was printing and everyone was shooting 5D's, all their files looked like mush. These days, as Seb says, there really is not such a meaningful technological difference unless you are talking about AF and AF tracking. Leica is indeed a long way from Sony on that front. But the other differences are much more subtle, and they tend to be at the extremes.

Exactly. Image quality is the main goal, anything else is secondary. Not all MP are counted equal.

[Stuart Richardson]

Agreed. And my first post was primarily in answer to Einst Stein’s first question “is Leica in trouble”. I agree with you that specs alone do not make a camera great. I see it all the time as a printer. And some of the cameras you don’t really expect can be great. Olympus, for example, never gets talked about, but I have printed some exhibition work shot on one that looked fantastic. Clearly it is not going to beat a GFX in a large print, but in normal sizes the results were really exellent. 

[shanefking]

50 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Agreed. And my first post was primarily in answer to Einst Stein’s first question “is Leica in trouble”. I agree with you that specs alone do not make a camera great. I see it all the time as a printer. And some of the cameras you don’t really expect can be great. Olympus, for example, never gets talked about, but I have printed some exhibition work shot on one that looked fantastic. Clearly it is not going to beat a GFX in a large print, but in normal sizes the results were really exellent. 

Olympus (RIP) was king of small cameras punching above their weight, for a long time.  My 35RC is the most petite full manual rangefinder camera, with a delightful lens.

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[Pieter12]

2 hours ago, shanefking said:

Olympus (RIP) was king of small cameras punching above their weight, for a long time.  My 35RC is the most petite full manual rangefinder camera, with a delightful lens.

That may be true, but anyone willing to lug around a Leica S is not concerned with size or weight.

[Einst_Stein]

It seems 4/3 format is moving out of market interests, regardless how excellent Olympus is going to perform. I think Olympus should move up to FF ASAP.

Similarly, Leica abandoned ASP-C and Fujifilm is active in 44x33 format, not sure how long APS-C can hold its stand. Maybe Fujifilm will be the only major player in APS-C. FF will be the mainstream. 

FF's fast AF and super-tele is untouchable by larger format. APS-C and 4/3 supposed to have better chance to be shining in this area but just didn't catch up.