A Very Smart Move for Leica ? or ! ... :)

[sdai]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I have 10 minutes to kill so before some may start pointing fingers at me again, please allow me to say this is all based on hearsays and speculations ... ok? now, let's start, it's a short one, I guarantee.

 

I'm not going to talk about a wish list nor argue over the pros and cons of any gimmicks, but have you ever thought of this?

 

If the phantom R10 is really going to be supersized, larger than conventional 35mm full frame, it'll undoubtedly give Leica an edge over the competition because Canon and Nikon are no longer competitors. Who is stupid enough to compare a 1Ds to a H3D-39? the R10 may not be a H3D but hey now, it's bigger than 35mm, it's a brandnew marketing segment ... whatever price point it is set at, it is justified. Image quality wise, now it has the potential to leap over traditional 35mm, it's the top of the pyramid.

 

Now that leaves the phantom M9 alone to compete in the 35mm market, and again, it has no competition. How good is that?

 

The bottom line can be covered by a DX format, 4/3 or Digilux 2 style product, price gap in this range may not be big enough for folks to resist the seduction of the red dot.

 

If this is executed as expected (of course, you need the damned cameras working flawlessly then they'll sell like hot cakes), then nothing can stop a rising new Leica.

 

Back to the R, my best wish is that they could make the legacy manual lenses working natively on the new body ... if not, an adapter will do for me, but not perfect, a crop-to-35mm mode needed? I'm not sure and it sounds scary, that depends on how far the R10 could go.

 

Clock rings ... dream over.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[AlanG]

Who is stupid enough to compare a 1Ds to a H3D-39? the R10 may not be a H3D but hey now, it's bigger than 35mm, it's a brandnew marketing segment ... whatever price point it is set at, it is justified. Image quality wise, now it has the potential to leap over traditional 35mm, it's the top of the pyramid.

 

 

I doubt if there will be significant demand for a "brand new marketing segment."

 

Just recently a sales rep from a company that sells MF backs and cameras called and was trying to get me to buy one of their systems. I told him that even though I was a long time LF and MF shooter, I was quite happy with the results I was getting with 35mm digital. So I wasn't interested in buying MF and told him I had sold almost all of my Rollei MF system 4 years ago. The sales rep told me that a lot of photographers had said the same thing to him. We had a very long discussion about high end equipment and the photo business in general.

 

I think you should keep in mind that the business really has changed. Even when I was shooting 4x5, few clients wanted me to scan to larger than 40 megs. That led me to use my 4x5 with 6x9 film almost exclusively because 40 megs wasn't even getting close to what 6x9 could max out at and thus made shooting 4x5 a waste. When the 1Ds came out, I tried it and saw that the files looked a bit better than the 40 meg scans from 6x9 that I was giving to my clients. So for the past 4 years, I've shot almost everything with the 1Ds and 5D. (I gave them files from the DII also. I am not sure if I would see much advantage in going to the 21 megapixel 1DsIII let alone a larger format. I'd probably be up for a 5D replacement because I like that form factor.

 

Pecualiarly enough, one of the pictures that pleased a client the most was taken with my 8 megapixel Konica Minolta A2 and has been used quite extensively even for large displays. For a variety of reasons, it was a good choice. I would never have even considered using a camera like that in the old days. It was shot at 1/15th at 2.8 with a 41mm equivalent lens with no additional lighting as I leaned over the balcony. An alternative would have been to use a larger camera and boom out a tripod over the railing and secure it with ropes and clamps. Instead I just shot a few images handheld. looked at the on my computer to see that they had enough sharpness and depth of field and moved on. Here's a link to the unadjusted jpeg directly out of the camera:

 

http://goldsteinphoto.com/Posts/PICT0580.JPG

 

For those who need higher quality than the Canon 1DsIII, why wouldn't they just buy a Hassy H3 or other high res MF system? What could Leica offer that would be different or better? By the way, in NY, I played with the Rollei Hy6 and the 33 megapixel Leaf back and that would be a hard act for Leica to beat too.

 

It would seem to me that if one were interested in higher than Canon's 21 megapixel FF quality, and could afford it, then it would make sense to buy a system that uses a removable digital back that can be used on several types of camera bodies. So you could move the back between let's say, the Rollei Hy6, Alpa wide angle or other specialized camera, and a standard view camera as you like.

 

I have no idea what Leica can, will, or should do, but feel that they will have a very difficult time competing against what is already available, let alone what will be out in the next year or two.

[ptomsu]

I have 10 minutes to kill so before some may start pointing fingers at me again, please allow me to say this is all based on hearsays and speculations ... ok? now, let's start, it's a short one, I guarantee.

 

I'm not going to talk about a wish list nor argue over the pros and cons of any gimmicks, but have you ever thought of this?

 

If the phantom R10 is really going to be supersized, larger than conventional 35mm full frame, it'll undoubtedly give Leica an edge over the competition because Canon and Nikon are no longer competitors. Who is stupid enough to compare a 1Ds to a H3D-39? the R10 may not be a H3D but hey now, it's bigger than 35mm, it's a brandnew marketing segment ... whatever price point it is set at, it is justified. Image quality wise, now it has the potential to leap over traditional 35mm, it's the top of the pyramid.

 

Now that leaves the phantom M9 alone to compete in the 35mm market, and again, it has no competition. How good is that?

 

The bottom line can be covered by a DX format, 4/3 or Digilux 2 style product, price gap in this range may not be big enough for folks to resist the seduction of the red dot.

 

If this is executed as expected (of course, you need the damned cameras working flawlessly then they'll sell like hot cakes), then nothing can stop a rising new Leica.

 

Back to the R, my best wish is that they could make the legacy manual lenses working natively on the new body ... if not, an adapter will do for me, but not perfect, a crop-to-35mm mode needed? I'm not sure and it sounds scary, that depends on how far the R10 could go.

 

Clock rings ... dream over.

 

You are exactly getting my thoughts and considerations now. That might be the background for the development of the R10 and M9 and maybe as base system the R 4/3.

 

If they really can stand through all these developments and bring products in a year from now I am pretty sure they will be on the winning side again.

 

And by having their high quality lens know how they really can outperform the whole competition!

 

Let's see ....

[lct]

So after the Texas Leica now comes Godzilla Leica...

Puzzling that vignetting becomes so easy to solve BTW.

[Guest tummydoc]

If the phantom R10 is really going to be supersized, larger than conventional 35mm full frame, it'll undoubtedly give Leica an edge over the competition

 

Yes I fear in that case the R10 will rob sales from the Pentax 645D

[sdai]

Yes I fear in that case the R10 will rob sales from the Pentax 645D

 

I think the 645D is doomed ... anyway, Leica could easily confirm it with their partner Kodak and find if Pentax has ordered their CCD. LOL

[sdai]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So after the Texas Leica now comes Godzilla Leica...

Puzzling that vignetting becomes so easy to solve BTW.

 

What's wrong with Texas, and Godzilla ... LCT?

 

Seriously, if Leica dares to ponder over a 35mm full frame M9, do you think vignetting will be a problem? be it offset microlenses or firmware correction ... they've proven that both should work.

[sdai]

You are exactly getting my thoughts and considerations now.

 

Not exactly, Peter ... if these are not completely off base, then you should admit that they're Leica's thoughts and considerations.

[jank]

Any larger frame than the std. 35 mm would require new, larger mirror, pentaprism etc.a monster.

With that comes a question:

How good would evf have to be to satisfy Leica users?

Almost all cameras have 200 kpixels or so.

Would 1 MP , 2 MP or perhaps more be sufficient?

Is it just resolution?

This would eliminate mirror, pentaprism, noise, all mechanical design associated headaches.

 

Jan

[R10dreamer]

Oh great. My main complaint now is that my 19 mm is really a 24 and that my 28 is now a 35. I want my lenses to shoot what they are designed to shoot. FF is fine by me. 18 mp's is fine by me. Faster image recording would be great and working with ttl would be great.

[sdai]

I have no idea what Leica can, will, or should do, but feel that they will have a very difficult time competing against what is already available, let alone what will be out in the next year or two.

 

Alan, for folks like you who do serious stuff with your gears ... you should look up from the top tiers, clients pay the bill anyways, right? If I were doing landscape and architecture stuff, and get paid on the job ... I would not hesitate a lot in getting a XY with the Leaf back, and several Digitar or Rodenstock lenses.

 

I seriously suspect that Leica will go full medium format, no 6x6 ... I don't like square format at all ... no 645, that's too big and will directly throw us R users in jeopardy. I've long been curious to know, what's exactly the size of R systems image circle? what's the capability of the R mount? how far can it go? ... never got an answer, not even a good guess.

 

But there're people who have played with the 4/3 lenses and found many of them are capable of covering the DX format with no problem ... so, Olympus may have already left the back door open at the beginning and they could go for DX with the existing mount ... only matter is the time they need to put 2x into its death bed without losing too much face. That could be the case for R as well ... if Leica could stuff in a bigger sensor cost effectively, technology feasibly, then why not?

 

I don't think the interchangeable back solution is the way to go ... and it's against the trend at the moment, the MF market is pretty much a one man show of Hasselblad only at the moment, Contax gone, Pentax gone, Mamiya ... not sure yet, Rollei never had a big stake in the market even in their most glorious days, I can't believe that Phase One or Leaf will only make backs for large format and specialized cameras ... what do they do? go find a partner. Leaf is already part of Kodak ... there you go, they could hook up with Leica, Phase One, they're so close ... they could hook up with Leica too.

 

But hey, who says Leica will need some help? ... they could build stuff in house too.

 

I wouldn't believe this supersized thing if there weren't many folks confirming it was directly from Leica too ... there could be some room for expansion based on existing fundamentals ... just my wild guess, 10 more months.

[gwelland]

Ok, how about Leica fully put their experience behind 4/3rds and come out with a system that would blow Olympus out of the water quality wise. (I deliberately ignore Panasonic ...)? A 4/3rds true digital R vs the mid-level Panaleica's that we've seen while Leica worked on the lifeboat strategy to keep alive.

 

It doesn't do much for established R shooters, although there is a legacy support adapter, but it would do wonders for the 4/3rds community and possibly open up a larger market for Leica glass.

 

I definitely can't see the wisdom of Leica creating a whole new system as there isn't any way that there's a market to support them. Can you imagine the lens development effort and costs? Either produce an evolutionary update from the R/DMR or adopt 4/3rds with 100% commitment and leverage the wider market for Leica product.

 

My $0,02 ... and that's what it's worth.

[Ted99]

Are we talking about the old hand hold digital Leica camera size ?

36 x 36 mm ?

It,s the same as Hbl 16 MB digital back

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/37171-very-smart-move-leica.html

 

Anyway I like the idea.

 

/Ted

[lct]

What's wrong with Texas, and Godzilla ... LCT?...

I love both as long as i don't have to carry them in my bag.

To me R8 & R9 are too big yet so i'll buy your monstrous R10 when...

[ptomsu]

Not exactly, Peter ... if these are not completely off base, then you should admit that they're Leica's thoughts and considerations.

 

Well I had these thought in parallel to Leica I think, but I will not fight for any rights here :-))

 

Actually not so difficult in my opinion to conclude some potential business models for their strenghts.....

[Guest tummydoc]

I think the 645D is doomed

 

Yes, well, that was quite my point. Glad it was able to penetrate somewhat intact.

[R10dreamer]

http://tinyurl.com/rv7w/PigFlying.gif

 

Loved this.

[Angora]

The MF thing... any connexion with Leica trying to buy Leaf, few years ago?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[agfa100]

I also think that with the time that they have had to come out with a new dslr by next year that it's going to be some type of super 4/3's system. They know that they have to have autofocus to sell and they need sales to keep things working. I just don't see the market for some super size dslr FF or larger then 24x36. Who could afford it and how many would they sell, you need numbers for profit pure and simple. But everyone says I am just blowing smoke, still in a fog.

[stunsworth]

...you need numbers for profit pure and simple

 

Not really, the two basic approaches seem to be low margins, high volume, or high margins, low volume.

 

I seriously doubt that Leica would go down the low margin route. They can't shift enough boxes to do that, and I also can't see them relying on a low cost product as being central to their recovery strategy. They are never going to be a Canon or a Nikon and IMHO they know that too. They have an interest in keeping the price high to appeal to those purchasers who are 'buying the dream'. As a niche player they need to clearly define what that niche is. They've done that with the M range, now they need to do it with the R.