Delayed release of shutter on IIIg

[qqphot]

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Would anyone like to speculate how or why a IIIg might release the shutter 1/4 sec or so late after the button is pressed, but *only* when film is loaded? 

Exposures are absolutely consistent and correct regardless (incl flash sync), but sometimes you press the button and there's a bit of a catch before it fires. Never happens without film loaded. I find this puzzling.  It's merely an inconvenience but I'm curious!

I've had poor results with sending cameras to CLA specialists for specific problems, sad to say.

[dpitt]

2 hours ago, qqphot said:

I've had poor results with sending cameras to CLA specialists for specific problems, sad to say.

If you do not get a solution... Did you try Will van Manen? I had a few 'hopeless' cases which were solved by him without breaking a sweat. Be prepared for a longish return time, he has a large backlog and is having health issues now. Asking for a quote will not hurt.

Edited February 5, 2023 by dpitt

[qqphot]

2 hours ago, dpitt said:

If you do not get a solution... Did you try Will van Manen? I had a few 'hopeless' cases which were solved by him without breaking a sweat. Be prepared for a longish return time, he has a large backlog and is having health issues now. Asking for a quote will not hurt.

I feel like all the competent repairers have huge backlogs and some are slipping with regard to the quality of their work. I'm at the point where aside from basic maintenance I can do myself, I will pass a camera on and replace it with a recently serviced one when problems show themselves. It's sad to do it, but I'm not collecting anything rare and I just want working cameras, which isn't possible when any repair takes six months to several years.

[jerzy]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb qqphot:

but sometimes you press the button and there's a bit of a catch before it fires

your remark is pointing into direction of misaligned release button. Firstly a bit of explanation. In  order to make release smoother, starting with IIIc Leica has 2 holding points for shutter when spanned. Left photo shows sprocket drum (1), orange line indicates release shaft that is running inside. In the upper part sprocket drum is  coupled with wind knob. The lower sprocket wheel has a pin (not visible on the photo), it hooks against a pin on the silver wheel (2). This silver wheel is coupled with the shutter. So if you wind you will rotate sprocket drum and span the shutter. Right photo shows bottom of the camera when shutter spanned. Notice the anchor that holds the disc (this belongs to the shutter drum, opening curtain). So we have 2 point that hold the shutter when spanned: pins on the  wheel (2) and anchor. When releasing both need to free up the shutter, but the sequence has to be obeyed - this is the adjustment. When you press release the release shaft does 2 things: it moves silver wheel (2) down and is pushing leaf spring down. Leaf spring (edge above the silver round circle - release shaft) is pushing away the anchor moving it into directions as arrows show until it will release the disc. Remember, at the same time wheel (2) is being pushed down and unhooks from the sprocket drum. Sequence of releasing shall be that firstly wheel 2 unhooks and just a bit later the anchor releases the shutter. 

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If you have feeler gauge you may check it as shown on the photo below

Adjustment is being done by either repositioning the leaf spring, or, if this is not enough, by bending the anchor.
It is rather critical adjustment, be careful not to make it worse. In your case now I believe that anchor releases first and wheel 2 later.
And now how it connects to "with and without film". This is just my speculation. When the film is in, after winding, the  friction of the film may pull the sprocket drum a bit back taking the tensions between two pins  (sprocket drum and wheel 2) away and shutter works properly.

Edited February 5, 2023 by jerzy

[qqphot]

8 hours ago, jerzy said:

your remark is pointing into direction of misaligned release button. Firstly a bit of explanation. In  order to make release smoother, starting with IIIc Leica has 2 holding points for shutter when spanned. Left photo shows sprocket drum (1), orange line indicates release shaft that is running inside. In the upper part sprocket drum is  coupled with wind knob. The lower sprocket wheel has a pin (not visible on the photo), it hooks against a pin on the silver wheel (2). This silver wheel is coupled with the shutter. So if you wind you will rotate sprocket drum and span the shutter. Right photo shows bottom of the camera when shutter spanned. Notice the anchor that holds the disc (this belongs to the shutter drum, opening curtain). So we have 2 point that hold the shutter when spanned: pins on the  wheel (2) and anchor. When releasing both need to free up the shutter, but the sequence has to be obeyed - this is the adjustment. When you press release the release shaft does 2 things: it moves silver wheel (2) down and is pushing leaf spring down. Leaf spring (edge above the silver round circle - release shaft) is pushing away the anchor moving it into directions as arrows show until it will release the disc. Remember, at the same time wheel (2) is being pushed down and unhooks from the sprocket drum. Sequence of releasing shall be that firstly wheel 2 unhooks and just a bit later the anchor releases the shutter. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

If you have feeler gauge you may check it as shown on the photo below

Adjustment is being done by either repositioning the leaf spring, or, if this is not enough, by bending the anchor.
It is rather critical adjustment, be careful not to make it worse. In your case now I believe that anchor releases first and wheel 2 later.
And now how it connects to "with and without film". This is just my speculation. When the film is in, after winding, the  friction of the film may pull the sprocket drum a bit back taking the tensions between two pins  (sprocket drum and wheel 2) away and shutter works properly.

Jerzy, your replies to questions like this are always so informative and educational that sometimes I search your posts just to find more of them, even for problems I don't have.  This looks like something easy to investigate, at least, and I'll be careful if I try to adjust anything.

[qqphot]

Well, I've used feeler gauges and found the release button spacing to be just right; and I've carefully tried several positions of the leaf spring after scribing the original position so I could return it to where it was - it's still intermittently firing late.

 My conclusion is "there's something else going on."  --  most of the time, the pins on the sprocket wheel release first, then the shutter drum anchor releases.

But when there's film in it, and when the camera is cold or has been sitting for a bit, the shutter releases late, and because of this sensitivity to temperature and recent use, I suspect there is a problem with old lubrication or crud somewhere.  But where?   This happens when there is film loaded, and when its been sitting cocked for a while, and moreso when it's cold.

The person I got the camera from said it was serviced by Y Ye in 2021, but, well, that doesn't necessarily mean too much.

 

[leipo]

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I've been having the exact same problem with my iiic. After extensive reading and taking apart the mechanism, then examining the parts. I tried various ideas, including taking a leaf spring from other camera to try, attempting to modify the leaf spring itself by trying to bend it and other crazy ideas. However I ruled out all these out, because I found that the mechanism is quite precisely tuned and actually works reliably after the first initial sluggish shot when the camera is "cold".

My final conclusion that the problem is the small spring and the screw that holds the anchor lever. (See picture)

This is the part that pivots to release the shutter, and is the second stage action that occurs after the first stage in the sprocket wheel release (As detailed in the earlier part if this thread.)

I concluded that this portion is gummed up with old grease, which explains why the camera is sluggish to fire when cold or when the camera has been left alone for awhile. I think the  grease sets in and resists the motion of the anchor lever, which makes the anchor latch unable to uncouple reliably.

Therefore I took these apart and clean them, and you can see in the cleaning fluid in the second picture that there is quite a bit of gunk that comes out.

After reassembling and lubrication, the release doesn't seem to exhibit the sluggish behaviour anymore. So far, I've only been testing this for a few hours. Will update if the issue is entirely gone.

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[qqphot]

i'm looking forward to hearing whether your situation is resolved!

[leipo]

After a day of testing, the situation has improved but still not perfect. From a cold start, there have been two occasions when the delay still occurs, but it is much shorter in duration, and is less frequent. 

My next move will be to take apart and clean the anchor cam. (See picture).

Beyond that I will have to look into any rotating elements in the winding operation, like the springs in the shutter drum, that might also need cleaning and lubrication.

My theory is that most camera techs do a superficial service when they encounter a camera that needs repair, and do not go deep into cleaning all the parts. My camera is from 1942, which means that it is likely that it hasn't had a full strip down since being made.

Contrast this with watchmaking where a full service means that all parts are stripped down, cleaned and lubricated as standard practice. This seems to not occur when it comes to cameras, which are more robust comparatively. and can still function, albeit not optimally when a superficial cleaning is done.

 

 

 

 

 

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[leipo]

As an additional note to my previous post. The sluggish cold starts do not occur at the fast speeds now. This is a major improvement. On the slow speeds, due to the fact that the shutter drum is held for a time before it is released, this has led to my conclusion that the rotational parts of the shutter drum are the ones that need to be cleaned and lubricated.

 

 

[jerzy]

I cannot post any photos now, so I will try descriptive…

the spring you mentioned is active when anchor shall hook into the slot on the disc, so at the end of winding sequence. When you push release button the flat spring is pushing anchor away releasing the first, opening curtain. Try to put a drop of alcohol under the disc, there are 2 shims there, sometimes, with old grease they are sticky. You may as well unscrew the disc, then cleaning will be easier. When mounting disc back orientations needs to be kept (shutter spanned, anchor in slot). This is one possible reason, but check as well Position of flat spring as I described earlier in this thread

[leipo]

I've unscrewed the disc as you described, (I call it an anchor cam in my post), cleaned and lubricated it as well. 

The sluggish cold start occurs less, but I'll still need to quantify it by testing further. 

My feeling is that I'll need to go further into the camera. @jerzy do you know if I can take apart the shutter drum parts that rotate and clean them without having to retension the shutter?

@qqphot I've also thought of a temporary work around. If you are using your camera from a cold start. Put your lens cap on and fire off a blank exposure. Then rotate the shutter speed dial to cock the shutter. Then take your picture. Any pictures after that should be fine because the first actions I've described will "wake up" the camera. This is basically the same instructions for if you want to do a double exposure.

 

[jerzy]

Well, I am in hospital after hip surgery and cannot post any photos. For at least 1week. Generally you need to take body cover (2 screws) then remove front plate ( 8 or 9 screws, you might need to keep rangefinder cam depressed to remove front plate), remove 2 light shields and than you will see shutter drum. See as well thread „IIIg slow speeds“ or similar , on this page. In post #3 I wrote more about it. But honestly, this is temporarily solution and who knows how long will it hold

[qqphot]

4 minutes ago, jerzy said:

Well, I am in hospital after hip surgery and cannot post any photos. For at least 1week. Generally you need to take body cover (2 screws) then remove front plate ( 8 or 9 screws, you might need to keep rangefinder cam depressed to remove front plate), remove 2 light shields and than you will see shutter drum. See as well thread „IIIg slow speeds“ or similar , on this page. In post #3 I wrote more about it. But honestly, this is temporarily solution and who knows how long will it hold

Best wishes on your quick recovery!

[leipo]

Hi @jerzy

I've done it.

I'm thinking to lubricate the gears at the bottom of the drum, and to remove the shutter speed gears at the top. 

What do you think?

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[jerzy]

Wow, you quite advanced.
It is not a good idea to lubricate, you may worsen it. you may use lighter fluid and injection needle to localize the problem but before lubricating the shutter shall be thoroughly cleaned and this require complete disassembly. I may describe critical places where to inject lighter fluid. Top of the crate - there is a part where speed dial is mounted, underneath there is speed disc with holes. This disc is fix mounted on the shaft of main shutter drum and rotates with first, opening curtain. Underneath the is a sleeve with arm, this one rotates with closing curtain. Sleeve has brass bearing where the shaft rotates, outside it has ball bearing. Upper reel is fix mounted on the shaft, it has tape for opening curtain. Below there is a drum, it rotates on the shaft, drum is steel, no ball bearing inside. Lower reel in fix mounted on the shaft. If your camera is IIIf then you will have below 10 stell balls, 1mm. It is bearing without an housing. Outside on the bottom plate there is a disc where the anchor hooks with 1 or 2 shims in between. Left to the main drum there is silver gear, it has curtain brake inside, it rotates with opening curtain. There is another gear on release shaft, goes down when you push release, it has ball bearings. Right to the main drum there is escape, long speeds and right to it there is riveted gear. It rotates with the second, closing curtain and resets escape. On the right side, behind the light shield there are 2 smaller shutter drums, they have spring inside. Springs are greased and grease used in 50tie dries leaving white, hard residue. During CLA both drums shall be opened and spring cleaned and left lubricated.
and do not use regular oil, this must be thin, watchmaker oil. But after cleaning

[leipo]

Hi @jerzy I'm going to try your suggestion first.

However if I have to go further to disassemble more into the shutter crate, the only obstacle I can see is how to adjust the shutter speeds back. 

There doesn't seem to be any clear procedure on how to do this online despitedmy best efforts to find it and this is holding me back.

Perhaps you can give me an overview of the shutter speed adjustment procedure before I go further into the camera.

As an aside, I have some amount of experience servicing basic watch movements, which is why disassembling the Leica is perhaps not so difficult for me.

 

 

 

 

[jerzy]

IIIf Factory repair manual may be downloaded in internet, I think Butkus has it. Shutter adjustment is described there however it needs Leica propriety tester. Some people use high speed camera, some CRT TV, some electronical shutter tester . Generally for start take the same tension as it is now, assuming shutter is working correctly now. Release the shutter, unwound spring in controlled way and note number of rotations. Usually opening curtain has 4-6 rotations, closing 1,5 - 3. Depends on the camera. And this is for IIIf, other models are spanned differently. But honest warning - you can make it worse, both curtains shall run parallel (almost) across the whole frame with the slit width increasing a bit.