SL3 Rumors

[whowell]

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2 hours ago, SJH said:

Firstly let me state that I love my SL2-S and I'm looking forward to the SL3 in early 2024 but I do think the A9III poses some serious issues for Leica. In other words the serious amateur market is rather like say Ferrari's in that people buy them for 350k but may never go on a track and just cruise around in them, the owner though likes the fact it can do 200mph on the autobahn or go round that race track if they so desired.

I suspect the pricing of the SL3 will be similar to the A9III at c6k so many amateurs will most likely buy on bragging rights but probably never really use 120fps or shoot serious action/sports just like the Ferrari owner never really pushes the car at all.

As odd as it sounds, what got me shooting Leica digital was the simplified interface.  We picked up a lightly used sl2s at an insane deal for my day job, not for me personally… but the design is so simple that I can hand the camera off to college interns and they can focus on learning the exposure triangle without any confusion.  There’s no other camera brand on the market (well… Hasselblad too) that makes digital cameras that focus their interface on the essentials.

I love the fact that the sl2s has ibis, etc… and good enough autofocus for the sigma glass the interns sometimes use.  My daughter (high school intern) and I prefer to shoot manual glass on the sl2s for the “closest to film” experience possible.

we shoot fujifilm xt series too, but honestly all the retro dials intimidate the heck out of most casual/student photographers.

I say all that to state that I’m probably an outlier in this conversation, since my entry into Leica digital was through work.. but it’s turned out to be a heck of a camera and the photos that come off of it are timeless.  I attribute that directly to the camera’s design and how it gets out of the way, while still having all the modern perks of its competitors.  Due to the aforementioned Ferrari prices, we definitely won’t be picking up a sl3 at work until they’ve been on the market for quite a long time… if ever… however… personally… if the feature set is right… basically a q3 with interchangeable lens (even if it doesn’t have a global shutter), then.. I’ll probably sell a kidney to get it.

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[SJH]

16 minutes ago, whowell said:

As odd as it sounds, what got me shooting Leica digital was the simplified interface.  We picked up a lightly used sl2s at an insane deal for my day job, not for me personally… but the design is so simple that I can hand the camera off to college interns and they can focus on learning the exposure triangle without any confusion.  There’s no other camera brand on the market (well… Hasselblad too) that makes digital cameras that focus their interface on the essentials.

I love the fact that the sl2s has ibis, etc… and good enough autofocus for the sigma glass the interns sometimes use.  My daughter (high school intern) and I prefer to shoot manual glass on the sl2s for the “closest to film” experience possible.

we shoot fujifilm xt series too, but honestly all the retro dials intimidate the heck out of most casual/student photographers.

I say all that to state that I’m probably an outlier in this conversation, since my entry into Leica digital was through work.. but it’s turned out to be a heck of a camera and the photos that come off of it are timeless.  I attribute that directly to the camera’s design and how it gets out of the way, while still having all the modern perks of its competitors.  Due to the aforementioned Ferrari prices, we definitely won’t be picking up a sl3 at work until they’ve been on the market for quite a long time… if ever… however… personally… if the feature set is right… basically a q3 with interchangeable lens (even if it doesn’t have a global shutter), then.. I’ll probably sell a kidney to get it.

Likewise and I've never regretted my Canon/Sony gear going and the Leica drug 'bit me hard', for wildlife and extreme sports I think most people will clearly use Sony/Canon/Nikon but for everything else the Leica's don't get in the way and inspire me!! Bring on the SL3 but I'll probably keep my SL2-S also.

[LocalHero1953]

30 minutes ago, whowell said:

gets out of the way

This should be part of Leica's branding. 

[padam]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:50 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

I am skeptical they will use the 60mp sensor. As you say, it is already several years old and Leica tends to intend their cameras to last 4 to 5 years. Additionally, we have not seen a replacement yet for either the Panasonic S1 or S1R (assuming there will be one). I have a feeling that we will see a new sensor. I have zero information, it is just a gut feeling. As you say, I don't think there is a huge difference in quality between that sensor and the one in the SL2 either. It has a bit more resolution, but really not a lot. And as you say, it is not really any better with ISO performance either.

This claim should be just as true for a Q3, which uses this sensor. Sony uses that in the fairly recent A7CR as well, which is not going away any time soon, neither does the A7RV, so they are definitely making this for a while. It makes sense for Leica to share as many parts as possible, similar processor, AF system, software interface etc.
What Leica is doing is using "normal" camera models with low or high MP, and garnishing them with their design, and simplified features.
So the basis is the budget FF class and the high megapixel FF class These Sony models / sensors haven't evolved much these days, but they also haven't changed with regards to pricing either.
Any other sensor would not be a basis for an SL3, the "normal, high MP model" but a different, higher-end model (Sony uses these as different product lines) and the premium multiplier would remain relatively similar. And also, there just aren't big differences regarding ISO or dynamic range anymore in general with other brands either.
It is the readout speed that is different with stacked sensors, enabling silent operation or better AF and video features.
 

4 hours ago, SJH said:

Firstly let me state that I love my SL2-S and I'm looking forward to the SL3 in early 2024 but I do think the A9III poses some serious issues for Leica. In other words the serious amateur market is rather like say Ferrari's in that people buy them for 350k but may never go on a track and just cruise around in them, the owner though likes the fact it can do 200mph on the autobahn or go round that race track if they so desired.

I suspect the pricing of the SL3 will be similar to the A9III at c6k so many amateurs will most likely buy on bragging rights but probably never really use 120fps or shoot serious action/sports just like the Ferrari owner never really pushes the car at all.

Well yes, ever since 2017 the A9 line has always threatened Leica M and now the SL line even more so because it is more comparable.
But you can also look at the other side of the coin is that for almost the same amount of money, one can go Leica instead of Sony - and all those things attributed to that, the latter being not equivalent to Ferrari.

I see the R5 II as more of a threat to the SL3 provided that it ups the ante with a stacked sensor, since even with a price increase it will remain at a lower price class, and it won't skimp on features despite remaining in the high MP class as well. Canon's strategy is just aiming for a more all-round camera instead of specializing in resolution, low-light, global shutter etc. and shift RF glass without much 3rd party intervention.


Edit: honorable mention goes to the GFX100 II great camera and all that, but Fuji made some false claims about improved readout speed and a new lower ISO setting improving dynamic range. Apart from some supposed tweaking with offset microlenses, it is pretty much the same sensor as before (but it still significantly better than before regarding speed, AF or video), still the same technology as what an SL3 might use, only upsized to medium format.

Edited November 8, 2023 by padam

[BernardC]

48 minutes ago, padam said:

Well yes, ever since 2017 the A9 line has always threatened Leica M and now the SL line even more so because it is more comparable.

The SL came-out a few years prior to the original a9, so maybe it's the other way around? The a9 was a reaction to the SL. Before that Sony did not offer a high-end mirrorless with professional features. I remember that some pros tried to use the original a7, mostly for video, but it had severe limitations.

I don't see how either camera threatens the Leica M. Maybe there are a few shoppers who just want to spend a lot of money, but that's not a winner-take-all category, and it's not a foundation for a business plan. Those shoppers just buy the latest, or the most expensive. Nikon had a new camera last month, Fuji the month before, Sony this month, Canon and Leica will have new models shortly. You can't rely on sales to customers who don't know what they want.

[frankchn]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

The SL came-out a few years prior to the original a9, so maybe it's the other way around? The a9 was a reaction to the SL. Before that Sony did not offer a high-end mirrorless with professional features. I remember that some pros tried to use the original a7, mostly for video, but it had severe limitations.

I really don't think Canon/Nikon/Sony really thinks about Leica that much when they plan future products. Leica is in a totally different price bracket with a different set of customers than the big three.

The A9 line started as their alternative to the Canon 1DX2/Nikon D5 -- sports photographers and photojournalists who want insane AF and burst rates and don't really care that much about megapixels.

[LeicaR10]

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Frankchn,  I agree.  Leica photographers seem to believe the company some how competes with mega-prosumer camera companies.  It does not, nor does it need too.  It builds hand-made cameras and lenses for photographers who seek high quality or are willing to pay a premium for hand-made rangefinders, lenses and other Leica camera products.  If people either want or need to buy Leica products, they can do so...for a price. Many photographers complain about the price of Leica gear.  They should keep in mind, Leica is a small company, with 100+ years of making hand-made cameras and lenses....this does not come cheap.  If photographers want low cost, prosumer cameras and lenses, simply go buy Canon, Nikon, Sony etc and be happy.  Life is short and whinging doesn't help make one happy, nor lower the cost of Leica gear.   r/ Mark

Edited November 8, 2023 by LeicaR10

[BernardC]

38 minutes ago, frankchn said:

Leica is in a totally different price bracket with a different set of customers

Is it totally different? Maybe the customers are different (we're all individuals!), but the price bracket is the same. The new Sony is pricier than the SL2-S, and their flagship a1 is priced around the same as the SL2. Canon and Nikon's finest are in this price range as well.

The M may be pricey, but the SL line is average for the market segment.

My point was that the original SL showed that you could sell a mirrorless camera with a sturdy build, a high frame rate, a large battery, and a host of other high-end features, at twice the a7 price. Almost everything about the original a9 is a copy of the SL, except for 10-bit video which Sony held-back on. Do you really think that Sony had no clue about how the market was evolving?

[frankchn]

39 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Is it totally different? Maybe the customers are different (we're all individuals!), but the price bracket is the same. The new Sony is pricier than the SL2-S, and their flagship a1 is priced around the same as the SL2. Canon and Nikon's finest are in this price range as well.

The M may be pricey, but the SL line is average for the market segment.

My point was that the original SL showed that you could sell a mirrorless camera with a sturdy build, a high frame rate, a large battery, and a host of other high-end features, at twice the a7 price. Almost everything about the original a9 is a copy of the SL, except for 10-bit video which Sony held-back on. Do you really think that Sony had no clue about how the market was evolving?

I do think that the Leica SL line is also on the upper end of the price range compared to cameras from Canon, Nikon, and Sony. The SL2 is getting long in the tooth and its capabilities are quite far behind not just the A1/Z9 line of cameras (which it shares a price point with), but also the cameras one step below it (R5/Z8/A7R5). 

The SL3 will probably be more of the same. It will likely have the same processor, sensor, and AF system as the Q3, which would match/exceed the resolution of Canon/Nikon/Sony's high end prosumer line (but likely still behind in AF, if my experience with the Q3 is any indication), all for the price of Canon/Nikon/Sony's flagship line up.

I don't think Sony needed proof from some other manufacturer that high end cameras can sell back in 2017. The fact that Nikon sells a D5 and Canon sells a 1DX2, should already be proof that there is a market for $6000 cameras.

The bit of about mirrorless is just a quirk of history -- if Sony had continued with the A-mount instead of going all in on E-mount with the first A7 back in 2013, the A9 might well have been a DSLR and the story would have been the same.

Also, if you look at the specifications for the A9, you can see that it is geared straight at the D5/1DX2 as well -- more fps than either of those, inclusion of the Ethernet port for remote camera purposes, good autofocus systems, and the price of $4500 at launch was to directly undercut both Canon and Nikon (who were selling their flagships for $6k).

Edited November 8, 2023 by frankchn

[padam]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

The SL came-out a few years prior to the original a9, so maybe it's the other way around? The a9 was a reaction to the SL. Before that Sony did not offer a high-end mirrorless with professional features. I remember that some pros tried to use the original a7, mostly for video, but it had severe limitations.

I don't see how either camera threatens the Leica M. Maybe there are a few shoppers who just want to spend a lot of money, but that's not a winner-take-all category, and it's not a foundation for a business plan. Those shoppers just buy the latest, or the most expensive. Nikon had a new camera last month, Fuji the month before, Sony this month, Canon and Leica will have new models shortly. You can't rely on sales to customers who don't know what they want.

Well, I certainly can, and I am not the only one. M10 -> SL -> A9 -> A9II
https://www.kuljuharri.com/blog/from-leica-to-sony

Any member of the series is very capable for street photography whether with adapted Leica M or compact native glass.

[BernardC]

39 minutes ago, frankchn said:

the price of $4500 at launch was to directly undercut both Canon and Nikon (who were selling their flagships for $6k).

Of course they charged less. They were going against proven reliable systems with full lens lines. The a7 was notorious for soaking-up any humidity, they had no repair facilities, and their lenses weren't up to the task. Anybody who used that system had to adapt EOS lenses. Times have changed and now they charge just as much as Canon, Nikon, and Leica. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, frankchn said:

The bit of about mirrorless is just a quirk of history -- if Sony had continued with the A-mount instead of going all in on E-mount with the first A7 back in 2013, the A9 might well have been a DSLR and the story would have been the same.

Sony was using EVF's long before the A series. The SLT's were already EVF cameras. They had their mirrorless plans years in advance.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Leica doesn't care about the A9III. I have a full Sony set as well as my SL's and they're not even close to the same. The A1 has been out long enough now that *if* Sony were a threat that camera would have already done the damage. But hipsters still buy Leica's, including SL's. Leica's near complete absence of high end super tele's should also make it clear that Leica isn't really going after that market. Sony is going after Canon.

If you want a Sony competitor to the SL3 it'll be the A7R5.

Leica has its market. Based around the glass. No one makes a set of primes like the APO Summicrons. The zooms are still class leading. Great menus and build quality.

I think the SL3 will be aimed at making even better files from M lenses. The new close focus capabilities of the M glass means Leica want you to use them on non M cameras. Almost certainly the excellent 60MP sensor. Flip up screen. Higher resolution EVF. PDAF focus primed for people mostly with a cursory nod to other subject detect because they get the tech from Panasonic anyway. Price is more than the SL2 because why not? release early 2nd quarter 2024.

I'd like to see the tech from the Nikon Zf be nicked and used. And some lenses with aperture rings...

Gordon

[Simone_DF]

13 hours ago, BernardC said:

My point was that the original SL showed that you could sell a mirrorless camera with a sturdy build, a high frame rate, a large battery, and a host of other high-end features, at twice the a7 price. Almost everything about the original a9 is a copy of the SL, except for 10-bit video which Sony held-back on. Do you really think that Sony had no clue about how the market was evolving?

This is a false equation. The original SL was released in October 2015, the A9 in May 2017.

Product roadmaps and broad specs are decided a few years in advance. It takes more than 18 months from inception to release date. Most likely, when the SL was released, Sony had already finalized the spec sheet of the A9.

[Sohail]

It's all about the lenses - especially the APOs and the 50 Summilux SL. That's why you invest into the SL system. 

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

It takes more than 18 months from inception to release date.

18 months seems about right, keeping in mind that they didn't start from scratch. The original a9 was an a7 with a better battery, sturdier body, and bigger/faster buffer. Don't forget that companies often use a continuous/modular design cycle now. A new product is just "what's ready to ship on a specific date."

[BernardC]

7 minutes ago, Sohail said:

It's all about the lenses - especially the APOs and the 50 Summilux SL. That's why you invest into the SL system. 

Every system has their USPs. Leica's are lenses, UX, and IQ. Sony's is speed. Canon and Nikon's are ultra-telephotos and professional support. Panasonic's is video.

It makes the choice easy if you only need one of those things.

[Sohail]

USPs and camera systems aside, it's always about the lens. At least for me.

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[Simone_DF]

31 minutes ago, BernardC said:

18 months seems about right, keeping in mind that they didn't start from scratch. The original a9 was an a7 with a better battery, sturdier body, and bigger/faster buffer. Don't forget that companies often use a continuous/modular design cycle now. A new product is just "what's ready to ship on a specific date."

I worked 12 years for a big IT / consumer electronic company. Depending on the company and your product, it can very easily take longer than 18 months even with continuous design cycles. Remember, every little change somewhere can cause havoc somewhere else. The M11 woes are the perfect example of that. Proper testing mitigates that, but proper testing takes time. You also need to take into account production and logistic time for an item with a market of millions of units.

Sure, Sony may have tweaked a thing or three after seeing the SL, but I bet that the core concept of the camera, together with production plans and overall roadmap, was developed before the SL timeframe. 

[BernardC]

2 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Sure, Sony may have tweaked a thing or three after seeing the SL, but I bet that the core concept of the camera, together with production plans and overall roadmap, was developed before the SL timeframe.

Surely. Any tech company will work on an upmarket and downmarket version of their core product. That's why I said they weren't starting from scratch.