SL3 Rumors

[Jon Warwick]

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2 hours ago, trickness said:

I think the real missing arrow in their quiver is an EVF M mount/M form factor/non rangefinder.

Yes! As someone currently on holiday photographing the French Alps and alternating between a GFX100S (ie, EVF) and M11, I’ve been reminded constantly about the aspects I like about both …..with the GFX the EVF can be very precise for composition and framing and off-centre focus accuracy, whereas I like the M11 in all other aspects (manual focus M lenses, small form factor etc). In that sense, an EVF M mount would be perfect for my uses!

[BernardC]

18 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Currently the Panasonic S5 is the obvious choice in L mount.

18 hours ago, ynp said:

would like to get a smaller L-mount camera to use it with my TL lenses with a reasonable resolution. 

The fp and fp-l also fit the requirement, at least for me. They are small and inexpensive for full-frame, and I find that they are easy to hold all day with the supplied grip (and a wrist strap).

The fp-l should produce 26MP APS_C images with TL lenses.

[Ken Abrahams]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:56 PM, Jon Warwick said:

I have no idea (obviously!) if what you say is right or not, but my personal guess is wouldn’t another EVF like a possible S4 medium format cannibalise the SL3 full frame, assuming the former could have an adapter to fit SL lenses in a crop mode whilst also giving medium format options too? If such a camera theoretically emerged, the S4 could be Leica’s pinnacle of EVFs and image quality at that stage, and as a barbell (*), the M would remain the uniquely lightweight and compact travel camera (and, to my eyes, an M11’s output in terms of image quality is ahead of an SL2 anyhow) ….so where would the SL fit in?

(*) I partly bring this up because I have done essentially that, via a barbell of 100mp GFX (when I really need that extra resolution) and an M11 (for nearly everything else), which have replaced an SL2 (where I thought the image quality was not obviously better than the M equivalent, and especially given the size / weight penalty of the SL range). 

Absolutely the S4 Jon, no one will see it coming but very likely it will come. 

[ynp]

48 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The fp and fp-l also fit the requirement, at least for me

I have the fp-l and I use it as a digital back on my Cambo Actus with my old Sinar and enlarger lenses. I am still interested in a smaller Leica SL because I want a platform to integrate my TL , Sl and S lenses and I doubt that a Panasonic camera will ever work with my S lenses.

I also have the original SL 601 with the Leica 50/2 asph, it’s still a great camera. I prefer to use my M and S lenses in the Manual Focus mode on the SL and the Leica VF is very satisfying. 

[1Haufen]

Am 13.9.2023 um 11:38 schrieb frame-it:

And who's going to buy it at that price? Leica has been going in the opposite direction with the SL2. Price reduced compared to the original SL, discounted bundles, rebates, free M adaptor, a cheaper SL2-S, you name it. Have you ever seen any of this on the Q or M? All red flags that the platform was not selling as much as hoped. A 7.5K price will kill the platform for good.

I guess that's the reason why they partly rely on Panasonic technology. They can control the selling price downwards to some extent, unlike the M series (11), which costs almost 9000 Euros...

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, 1Haufen said:

I guess that's the reason why they partly rely on Panasonic technology. They can control the selling price downwards to some extent, unlike the M series (11), which costs almost 9000 Euros...

interesting how it shows up as my quote when it actually is not

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[LocalHero1953]

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New kid on the block. Could this influence the SL3 design? Downplay the video element?

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[mpw]

Do you think there will be an SL3 , SL4, etc. How many version of the SL do you think that Leica will produce?

It would be great if they came up with a Q series with interchangeable lens but then it would not be a Q.  I have the Cl which I think is a great camera which I use with M type lens and other vintage lens. A FF camera between the CL and SL would be great. 

[frame-it]

well, just got a new notification about Leica giving almost a $1500 discount on the SL2 bundles, prolly need to get rid of SL2 stock but push the new cheaper lenses:

Valid for >

라이카 SL2 blk + SL 35 f/2 ASPH. 렌즈

라이카 SL2 blk + SL 50 f/2 ASPH. 렌즈

라이카 SL2 blk +  SL 24-70 f/2.8 ASPH. 렌즈

라이카 SL2 silver + SL 35 f/2 ASPH.

라이카 SL2 silver + SL 50 f/2 ASPH. 렌즈

라이카 SL2 silver + SL 24-70 f/2.8 ASPH. 렌즈

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by frame-it

[Simone_DF]

interesting that the discount bundles are all for the rebadged lenses. 

[Stuart Richardson]

49 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

interesting that the discount bundles are all for the rebadged lenses. 

I would guess that their margins are higher... Also, for the "uninformed" buyer, they still look like Leica made lenses. They are to a certain extent, but also as we know, are made with a partner's help. Either way, the lower the combined price of a package, the more a customer is usually likely to bite. If they packaged it with an APO Summicron or zoom and said: "Here you go, it is 11,000 dollars. It's our best bargain!", I imagine they would have fewer takers.

[Simone_DF]

49 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I would guess that their margins are higher... Also, for the "uninformed" buyer, they still look like Leica made lenses. They are to a certain extent, but also as we know, are made with a partner's help. Either way, the lower the combined price of a package, the more a customer is usually likely to bite. If they packaged it with an APO Summicron or zoom and said: "Here you go, it is 11,000 dollars. It's our best bargain!", I imagine they would have fewer takers.

That, and the 24-70 is the bread & butter lens for many

[JohnathanLovm]

On 9/13/2023 at 7:38 AM, Paul2660 said:

I feel it's safe to assume the SL3 when announced with cost around 7.5K US.  Possibly 8K.  

With the release of GFX100 II and Nikon Zf, it would be an uphill battle for SL3 with that price point especially being very late (2024) in 60MP FF group.  Based on the L2 collaboration and Q3/S5II spec, USD 5k-6k is the most reasonable in my opinion. 
 

Unless Leica surprises us with SL3 that come with medium format features (leaf shutter lens with 1/4000, focus stacking, frame averaging, etc).

[helged]

41 minutes ago, JohnathanLovm said:

With the release of GFX100 II and Nikon Zf, it would be an uphill battle for SL3 with that price point especially being very late (2024) in 60MP FF group.  Based on the L2 collaboration and Q3/S5II spec, USD 5k-6k is the most reasonable in my opinion. 
 

Unless Leica surprises us with SL3 that come with medium format features (leaf shutter lens with 1/4000, focus stacking, frame averaging, etc).

We can agree on/hope for a 'reasonably' priced SL3... But as long as Leica goes in plus, which has been the case for the last 10+ years I believe, the price level has clearly been acceptable up to now. 

[WvE]

I'm seriously contemplating to buy a SL-S (or SL2) to complement my M10-P. I would like to have an autofocus camera.

I tried the SL2-S in the Leica store and I found the look and feel to be second to none. However, what keeps me from buying it is the price and the tech, which is not the newest on the block. So, I'm also considering the new Nikon ZF which seems to be more value for money. The prices for second-hand SL2-S' are still pretty steep. What would you do, or wait what the SL3 brings?     

[padam]

2 hours ago, WvE said:

I'm seriously contemplating to buy a SL-S (or SL2) to complement my M10-P. I would like to have an autofocus camera.

I tried the SL2-S in the Leica store and I found the look and feel to be second to none. However, what keeps me from buying it is the price and the tech, which is not the newest on the block. So, I'm also considering the new Nikon ZF which seems to be more value for money. The prices for second-hand SL2-S' are still pretty steep. What would you do, or wait what the SL3 brings?     

I mean, it depends on whether you are heavily reliant on tracking autofocus with a subject moving in an erratic manner or straight towards you.
If you are, you're best best is a current Canon or a Sony and the latest Nikon is slightly below that, so still excellent.
Regarding the Zf the main thing I don't quite get is what type of lenses are they are going to mount on them (the Techart TZM-02 is kind of interesting to use with Leica lenses), there are not many "retro" options to suit the styling and all the technology that is in there is just better utilised on a "normal" Z6III.

They all have plenty of lenses with focusing motors that are just blazing fast. It is also great that you have multiple AF modes at your disposal at a touch of a button so you can be ready whether it is a particular subject you want to focus on or just something that suddenly enters the frame.
And even though they have introduced phase-detect in the Q3, it is only an improvement compared to their previous cameras, but still not the best with regards to AF in general.
That is the scale of improvement that is most likely to happen with a future SL3, likely using a similar sensor.

If one-shot single-point AF is sufficient for you for the most part, which is not that dissimilar to manually focusing on a (relatively) still subject, then the Leicas will work well enough. They are less capable in general, but also simpler, more straightforward, they won't feel quite as "digital" as those other cameras (the work is still more on yourself to nail focus) with all the latest tech.
And while it is subjective, there is a quality to both Leica cameras and their lenses that just aren't quite the same with those other options.

 

To be honest, I find it hard not to love the form factor, performance, variety, etc. of rangefinder lenses to the point, where I would rather just give up AF altogether on a Leica - my endless frustration is they just don't want to provide a matching mirrorless body with the same concept, and I can only be happy that the SL2 and SL-S have great EVFs in them - and ignore size, weight, handling, fixed screen, etc.


I've also expressed it earlier but it seems that Fuji's GFX system is also growing and making big strides to Leica's premium FF mirrorless market. I would not be surprised to see their latest camera being more capable than a future SL3 - and it's almost the same price as the current SL2. They can discount it as much as they can (after continually raising prices...), but it might be harder to compete after several years.
The GFX 100 II is "only" 7500$ MSRP versus 6000$ on an already well-priced, but significantly less capable GFX 100S.

Edited September 27, 2023 by padam

[WvE]

Thanks for your comments Padam! Yes, spec-wise it makes no sense to pay that much for a SL2-S. But, as you've correctly pointed out, a valid reason for buying the SL2-S today is: 

Quote

"If one-shot single-point AF is sufficient for you for the most part, which is not that dissimilar to manually focusing on a (relatively) still subject, then the Leicas will work well enough. They are less capable in general, but also simpler, more straightforward, they won't feel quite as "digital" as those other cameras (the work is still more on yourself to nail focus) with all the latest tech. And while it is subjective, there is a quality to both Leica cameras and their lenses that just aren't quite the same with those other options."

Unquote

[padam]

Yes, I have bought a like new SL2 for 3000 Euros and for that amount is worth it (I could resell it for a bit more despite putting a few marks on it after almost two years), but the MSRP is just too much in my opinion. If there is a similar deal on on SL2-S I might jump back again just to see if I can get to like it more.
Just missed the very last SL2 firmware update with the option of a newer, better battery, that seems to notably improve upon one gripe I had with it (out of many, but I also can't dispute all the good things either).

[LocalHero1953]

“Value for money” is a key phrase here - and is highly subjective. From a purely practical and tech point of view, it is difficult to argue that any Leica is value for money. You have to decide for yourself if the intangibles are worth paying for. Some of them might, in the real world, help you get a shot which a camera you are less comfortable with would make you miss. 

Edit. Even the practical/technical elements of a camera/lens can only be evaluated subjectively on a value for money basis. Are you willing to pay £2,000 more for a lens that creates images that are slightly sharper or less distorted in the corners?

Edited September 27, 2023 by LocalHero1953

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[LeicaR10]

LocalHero1953,  +1  Your comment on "Value for money"  is definitely subjective.  Leica is a niche camera manufacturer that makes handmade, highest quality lenses and cameras.  Leica is not a prosumer camera like Canon, Nikon , Fuji and does not need or want to be. (Thank Goodness)  Leica makes products that are not for the masses.  People forget too, that many Leica prices are merely keeping pace with inflation and costs.  The company must make a profit or go under like it nearly did in the early 2000s.  Leica for over 100 years simply works to the beat of a different drum...their own drum.  Frankly I am glad too.  No camera company today makes the same level of high quality handmade lenses and cameras, vs mass produced prosumer cameras and lenses.  Yes, these can be had at a lower price point and these do take good photographs, but the rapid loss of value of these type cameras and lenses tells me, holding such gear will suffer a far greater loss in value than owning say a Leica M camera and lenses.  The used Leica M camera and lens market proves that value is held at a higher level and holds much longer when owning new or used Leica gear.  Interesting, people who can afford and buy a Porsche, Ferrari, etc., don't whing about price.  Those cars depreciate as soon as they are driven off the lot.  Leica cameras and lenses hold their value when compared to other brands that are not in the same league for value.  To those who can afford Leica in times of high inflation and recession, I say great.  For others, there is nothing wrong with buying a previously owned Leica cameras or lenses.  Getting back to value...at the end of the day, it is all in the mind and wallet of the person who can only decide for themselves if they want to part with the cash to own a Leica for whatever price asked.  r/ Mark