SL3 Rumors

[BernardC]

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1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

Leica has a self induced sales problem with the SL series, and they need new bodies and lenses to reinvigorate the line. In the absence of new bodies, they should have concentrated on the lens introductions. Primes and amazing zooms would have been a strong draw to the series. Currently, their only differentiator is their lenses and look.

Is there any evidence of a sales problem? I am not convinced. Stock levels are good worldwide, which wouldn't be the case if the line didn't sell (dealers would drop the product). The Reporter special edition sold-out quickly. Online discussions are filled with people who own, use, and love the cameras (I remember when any mention of Leica would inevitably summon a legion of haters who had absolutely no experience with the product, but only knew that it was expensive). The company as a whole is more profitable than ever.

Don't expect to see Leica release as many new models as the Japanese mainstream brands. Leica did this in 2020 and 2021, but that was an anomaly. Canon and Nikon are pushing hard to establish their new systems; it's "do or die" for them. Sony used to regularly release new products, but they've slowed-down a lot. Their last two releases have been either slight upgrades (A7R), or a patchwork of off-the-shelf components. They were working on modernizing their lens line, but that seems to have stalled as well.

I'm not sure what your overall point is. It's a competitive market? It always was. The good news is that Leica and L-Mount are doing better than ever, and capturing a good chunk of sales in the mid/high-end. Obviously, Canon and Nikon have the mind share for press and sports, but that's their brand identities. News and magazine budgets have collapsed, so maybe it's not a great market to be in.

On the other hand, Panasonic is doing great in the hybrid/video market, which is growing. Leica can only benefit from that. We also see a lot of first-time, younger Leica buyers right here in this forum, which is a great sign.

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[LocalHero1953]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

We also see a lot of first-time, younger Leica buyers right here in this forum, which is a great sign.

Something I've noticed as well.

[frame-it]

8 hours ago, hansvons said:

As long as AI doesn’t do that human creativity is going nowhere. 

 

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[Chaemono]

The M will thrive as a counter-movement to the rise of the machines. The M is the antipode of automation and AI. It will become the "symbol of the tribe", a tool of the revolutionary photographers fighting the algorithm. Sony will be viewed as having crossed over to the dark side of the force. That's what it's already viewed today probably and why we see many new young users of an M in this forum. The ultimate symbol of resistance will be the Monochrom, of course. 

[beewee]

13 hours ago, BernardC said:

Sony used to regularly release new products, but they've slowed-down a lot. Their last two releases have been either slight upgrades (A7R), or a patchwork of off-the-shelf components. They were working on modernizing their lens line, but that seems to have stalled as well.

Release cycles for the A7 variants have never been that frequent. They’ve been typically update every 2-3 years and usually only every second update to a product line has seen significant improvements. Otherwise, it’s a general refresh with quality of life improvements. The A7R5 is a quality of life improvement but still has some impressive new AF updates. One could say Leica has done something similar with the M10 and M10-R, as well as ‘P’ updates to the Q and M series.

As far as lenses go, Sony has probably one of the best lens designers for the consumer market right now. They’ve released some pretty impressive lenses including the 12-24/2.8 GM, 14/1.8 GM, 20-70/4 G, and many others that no other manufacturers have produced and the quality of those lenses are top notch, as good as many Leica and Sigma lenses. They may not compare well with the APO SL primes but nor does Leica’s own non-APO SL lenses.

If the user interface (both hardware and software) on Sony bodies wasn’t so awful, I’d probably have switch to Sony or at least have a parallel system. That said, having played with Sony raw files, I feel they take a lot more work to edit compared to Leica DNGs. I really like the malleability of the Leica DNGs for getting pleasing colors.

Edited May 17, 2023 by beewee

[david strachan]

9 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Something I've noticed as well.

Ditto...

[Gavin G]

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For SL3 personally rq better focusing system during AF-C and flip screen will do, the rest was good enough for me.

[Jeff S]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:48 AM, helged said:

The SL3 and S4 will likely share sensor technology, as has been the case in the past with eg M11 and S3. 

M10-R and M10M share sensor architecture with the S3, as did the M240 and S007.  
 

Jeff

[hansvons]

3 hours ago, david strachan said:

12 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Something I've noticed as well.

Ditto...

Yes, the M is a staple with millennials, albeit more on the wishlist than in their hands. I know a few 25 to thirty-somethings who know precisely what I’m holding in my hands. The comment is always if it wasn't so expensive. But the M6 is super hyped and relatively widespread in specific communities, e.g. skateboarding. People love the camera before and behind it.

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, hansvons said:

Yes, the M is a staple with millennials, albeit more on the wishlist than in their hands. I know a few 25 to thirty-somethings who know precisely what I’m holding in my hands. The comment is always if it wasn't so expensive. But the M6 is super hyped and relatively widespread in specific communities, e.g. skateboarding. People love the camera before and behind it.

probably differs a lot by region, in Far East Asia, ive seen a LOT of guys between 18-30 with the latest M's and Q's, a Lot of girls with Q's and Q2's, in SE Asia the age group that ive noticed changes to 35-50 for new M's, and the younger 18-30s usually have used film cameras, rarely leicas, and/or canon/nikon/sony digital.

[BernardC]

8 hours ago, beewee said:

They’ve released some pretty impressive lenses including the 12-24/2.8 GM, 14/1.8 GM, 20-70/4 G, and many others that no other manufacturers have produced and the quality of those lenses are top notch, as good as many Leica and Sigma lenses.

I'm not convinced that no other manufacturer has produced similar lenses. Sigma has a 14/2.8. Sony's 20-70 is a response to Panasonic's 20-60. And the 12-24 is said to be soft in the corners at the wide end, meaning that it's effectively no better than competing zooms that start at 14 or 15mm.

My point was that Sony made a big deal about how their "GM" lenses were finally going to make them competitive, but they've been as slow as Leica in expanding their GM range. Their "pre-GM" lenses were mostly famous for the fact that Sony shooters would rather use adapted EOS lenses, so they are still catching-up.

They have some marquee lenses, and some gaps. One can always argue (over a drink) about how one manufacturer's lens line is better than another but, as far as I am concerned, the grass isn't greener on Sony's side of the fence.

[Stuart Richardson]

From my perspective, no one has an answer to the apo summicron sl line, which are moderately sized, stunning in performance, fast enough and a matched set of lenses in all the most important focal lengths, other than very wide and a longer telephoto (say 21/24 f2 which is apparently coming, and something like a 135mm f2). The other companies might have good lenses, but they are all a bit different. The nice thing about the SL apo summicrons is that they are all similar like a cinema lens lineup. Same size, same filters, same look, same perfection edge to edge at every aperture. This is not what everyone wants, but for me at least it allows me to simply choose the right focal length and forget about the rest. This is more or less inherited from the S system, where it was also a huge benefit and reason to choose it. Combine that with Leica’s design, their color science and there is zero interest for me at least in other companies’s offerings. 

[Virob]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

From my perspective, no one has an answer to the apo summicron sl line, which are moderately sized, stunning in performance, fast enough and a matched set of lenses in all the most important focal lengths, other than very wide and a longer telephoto (say 21/24 f2 which is apparently coming, and something like a 135mm f2). The other companies might have good lenses, but they are all a bit different. The nice thing about the SL apo summicrons is that they are all similar like a cinema lens lineup. Same size, same filters, same look, same perfection edge to edge at every aperture. This is not what everyone wants, but for me at least it allows me to simply choose the right focal length and forget about the rest. This is more or less inherited from the S system, where it was also a huge benefit and reason to choose it. Combine that with Leica’s design, their color science and there is zero interest for me at least in other companies’s offerings. 

To be inclusive, Panasonic does something similar with their set of 18, 24, 35, 50 and 85mm/1.8 lenses. Same size, filters, similar weight. Obviously, not to the same level of the APO primes. Leica has already incorporated 2 of these, the 35 and 50 into the Leica lineup and for all we know, may bring in the others eventually.

[LBJ2]

11 hours ago, beewee said:

Release cycles for the A7 variants have never been that frequent. They’ve been typically update every 2-3 years and usually only every second update to a product line has seen significant improvements. Otherwise, it’s a general refresh with quality of life improvements. The A7R5 is a quality of life improvement but still has some impressive new AF updates. One could say Leica has done something similar with the M10 and M10-R, as well as ‘P’ updates to the Q and M series.

As far as lenses go, Sony has probably one of the best lens designers for the consumer market right now. They’ve released some pretty impressive lenses including the 12-24/2.8 GM, 14/1.8 GM, 20-70/4 G, and many others that no other manufacturers have produced and the quality of those lenses are top notch, as good as many Leica and Sigma lenses. They may not compare well with the APO SL primes but nor does Leica’s own non-APO SL lenses.

If the user interface (both hardware and software) on Sony bodies wasn’t so awful, I’d probably have switch to Sony or at least have a parallel system. That said, having played with Sony raw files, I feel they take a lot more work to edit compared to Leica DNGs. I really like the malleability of the Leica DNGs for getting pleasing colors.

As a long time Sony and now Leica M/SL shooter I use this equipment almost every day and have had plenty of time to do direct comparisons. I can easily agree with your comments. I own many of the Sony GM lenses as well. Sony GM lenses just keep getting better and better even while Sony prioritizes smaller and compact ( to some sacrifice--e.g. focus breathing). Sony does indeed have the most complete emount lens library of any other mirrorless system for some time now. Runner up is Lmount. 

Sony has made huge strides in their menu system redesigns. Huge. Most reviewers have stopped complaining. Part of the problem is mirrorless cameras area often jammed packed with features hence the lengthy menus. But comparing to Nikon mirrorless and Canon mirrorless, I'm not so sure Sony is so different--but yes, more work can be done. Particularly when you see the improvement in the A7r5 menu. IMO the best Sony menus to date.  

I hate to bring this up on a Leica forum. But here goes. The Sony GM 35 vs the Leica SL 35 APO. Side by side might surprise...just saying as I am proud owner of the much sought after SL 35 APO and of course I had to compare to the Sony GM 35. 

[frame-it]

On the Weibo Platform, someone jokingly commented the SL3 is basically a 60mp lumix S5ii hardware in an SL2 body

[trickness]

For what it's worth, I'm out on the street here in NYC and see plenty of "millennials" shooting with mostly film Leica and old Nikons...Polaroids even. I sometimes see young-ish people using M digital bodies but they're usually mid 30's at least. There are some people using Sony for sure, I have literally NEVER seen a single young person with an SL body in over 2 years of street shooting multiple times a week here. In fact, I've only bumped into maybe 3 other SL shooters during that entire time.

I've already seen a few M11M bodies in the wild, but everybody using one was at least mid 40s. Here in NYC at least, the fetish for digital Leica anything is near zero with young people. It's all about film and well used 28 and 35 lenses. I think it's pretty cool because every single one of them I speak to goes through the film learning curve, and suffers with the film prices, but they wear it like a badge of honor. But they have zero interest in digital anything. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by trickness

[trickness]

7 minutes ago, frame-it said:

On the Weibo Platform, someone jokingly commented the SL3 is basically a 60mp lumix S5ii hardware in an SL2 body

Speculative sarcasm on an Internet forum? I'm shocked. 🤣

By that logic, a 289 Shelby Cobra was "basically" an old British car with a Ford engine stuck in it. Sometimes things are more than the sum of their parts.

Edited May 17, 2023 by trickness

[LBJ2]

1 minute ago, trickness said:

For what it's worth, I'm out on the street here in NYC and see plenty of "millennials" shooting with mostly film Leica and old Nikons...Polaroids even. I sometimes see younger people using M digital bodies but they're usually older, mid 30's at least. There are some people using Sony for sure, I have literally NEVER seen a single young person with an SL body in over 2 years of street shooting multiple times a week here. In fact, I've only bumped into maybe 3 other SL shooters during that entire time.

I've already seen a few M11M bodies in the wild, but everybody using one was at least mid 40s. Here in NYC at least, the fetish for digital Leica anything is near zero with young people. It's all about film and well used 28 and 35 lenses. I think it's pretty cool because every single one of them I speak to goes through the film learning curve, and suffers with the film prices, but they wear it like a badge of honor. But they have zero interest in digital anything. 

Interesting observation. I'm guessing it also has to do with cost/budget for those just starting out in life e.g., with a horrific University loan to pay back (USA) and/or growing families. Many of our parents still have those old film and/or Nikons/Canon in the attic or the back of the drawer/closet. Those are free hand-me-downs in many cases, we just have to cough up for the color FILM 😱. Affordable B&W film is probably now a "thing" too based on cost with the same generation. We can also buy non-cult vintage cameras for very low prices too. 

I can't imagine too many thirty- somethings running out to buy $9K + NYC taxes on some digital camera that might look vintage. Even if they have $9K, you have to pay that credit card bill eventually. SL cameras plus lenses fall into the same scenario IMO. 

From my locale and travels. I've NEVER seen what you are seeing in NYC. From my vantage point its ALL smart phones. I'm always shocked when I see a real camera out and about and when I see real cameras its not the 20's-30's year olds 😉

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[LocalHero1953]

34 minutes ago, frame-it said:

On the Weibo Platform, someone jokingly commented the SL3 is basically a 60mp lumix S5ii hardware in an SL2 body

Is it going to sit on a shelf until next year, with no further development?

[trickness]

44 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Interesting observation. I'm guessing it also has to do with cost/budget for those just starting out in life e.g., with a horrific University loan to pay back (USA) and/or growing families. Many of our parents still have those old film and/or Nikons/Canon in the attic or the back of the drawer/closet. Those are free hand-me-downs in many cases, we just have to cough up for the color FILM 😱. Affordable B&W film is probably now a "thing" too based on cost with the same generation. We can also buy non-cult vintage cameras for very low prices too. 

I can't imagine too many thirty- somethings running out to buy $9K + NYC taxes on some digital camera that might look vintage. Even if they have $9K, you have to pay that credit card bill eventually. SL cameras plus lenses fall into the same scenario IMO. 

From my locale and travels. I've NEVER seen what you are seeing in NYC. From my vantage point its ALL smart phones. I'm always shocked when I see a real camera out and about and when I see real cameras its not the 20's-30's year olds 😉

It's got nothing to do with cost/budget. It's about the film experience and they're buying used vintage cameras, not inheriting them. This is a great YouTube channel if you want to get the NYC street photography scene vibe: https://youtube.com/@PaulieB