SL3 Rumors

[padam]

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6 hours ago, Planetwide said:

This makes sense because the SL2/S1r and R3 are all BSI sensors, whereas the R5 is not. 

No, the SL2/S1R sensor is not BSI. That's exactly why the SL3 is an upgrade.
Dynamic range should be comparable to the SL2-S (at least for stills) and ISO performance should be much closer as well.

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[Fang]

What I really like about the latest rumour of the SL3 is the pricing E6800 ?  I have placed my order for the SL3 in Leica Store KL (I need to upgrade my current well used SL).

Edited February 16, 2024 by Fang

[Planetwide]

3 hours ago, padam said:

No, the SL2/S1R sensor is not BSI. That's exactly why the SL3 is an upgrade.
Dynamic range should be comparable to the SL2-S (at least for stills) and ISO performance should be much closer as well.

While you are techinically correct, the S1r Sensor is unusual in that it's a front-side illuminated design, which uses asymmetric microlenses and 'waveguides' to direct light into the pixel and deep photodiode design to more efficiently capture light. Even today, on DXOmarks sensor reviews, it out score's many BSI sensors...

In this list, you will see that they rate the M11 sensor essentially the same as the S1r/SL2 sensor.

https://www.dxomark.com/best-cameras-under-59200-dollars

Edited February 16, 2024 by Planetwide

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, padam said:

No, the SL2/S1R sensor is not BSI.

Is there a source for this? I ask because Tower Semi specifically mentions their BSI stacked sensors for digital cameras: https://towersemi.com/technology/cmos_image_sensor/professional-photography-cis/

Do they have another ILC customer?

 

[BernardC]

11 hours ago, la1402 said:

Both get a score of 100, with a very tiny advantage of the M11 only in ISO performance. The lack of IBIS will remove that micro advantage in real life. 

All of these sensors are very good, granted. The point is that both the M11 sensor and the 47MP Tower Semi sensor test better than the Sony sensor that is rumoured for the SL3.

I'm not sure IBIS makes that much difference with an M. I was just reading a 1950s edition of the Leica Manual where they tell readers that they can confidently shoot at 1/20 or even 1/10 handheld. Back then ASA200 was considered "high speed film". Now we can shoot all day at ISO 6400 and beyond, but we need IBIS to get a decent image? Maybe that's the case with long lenses, but not in the meat of the M lens range. Besides, long lenses do better with OIS, not IBIS.

[padam]

1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

While you are techinically correct, the S1r Sensor is unusual in that it's a front-side illuminated design, which uses asymmetric microlenses and 'waveguides' to direct light into the pixel and deep photodiode design to more efficiently capture light. Even today, on DXOmarks sensor reviews, it out score's many BSI sensors...

In this list, you will see that they rate the M11 sensor essentially the same as the S1r/SL2 sensor.

https://www.dxomark.com/best-cameras-under-59200-dollars

Since when DXO is a reliable source. They have highly questionable antics regarding scoring various cameras.
If you want to see more useful test results, go to https://www.photonstophotos.net/

I can only say that the actual ISO and DR of an SL2 to my eyes is not particularly good compared to an S1 (which should be similar to an SL2-S).
I know we have good AI noise reduction these days - but it ain't doing much, if colours have already fallen apart.
So those scores are highly questionable.
(And it's not me saying that, it's everyone else who've owned and actually compared these cameras.)

[LBJ2]

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31 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Is there a source for this? I ask because Tower Semi specifically mentions their BSI stacked sensors for digital cameras: https://towersemi.com/technology/cmos_image_sensor/professional-photography-cis/

Do they have another ILC customer?

 

Leica officially describes the SL2 sensor as having a CMOS sensor. There is no source describing the Leica SL2 as a BSI sensor. *Not counting some forum opinions 

Both the SL2-2 and the M11 are described by Leica officially, with backside illumination (SL2-S) and BSI CMOS Sensor (M11) 

If the SL3 comes with a BSI CMOS sensor, then Leica will surely describe it as such. 

[BernardC]

23 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Leica officially describes the SL2 sensor as having a CMOS sensor. There is no source describing the Leica SL2 as a BSI sensor. *Not counting some forum opinions 

True, but "BSI" wasn't a marketing bullet point until Sony "invented" it (the same way Apple "invented" OLED smartphones years after they had become common on Android and even Blackberry devices). I don't think they would have gone back and re-published old press releases for an existing camera; they can't even be bothered to update instruction manuals for new firmware!

[LBJ2]

50 minutes ago, BernardC said:

True, but "BSI" wasn't a marketing bullet point until Sony "invented" it (the same way Apple "invented" OLED smartphones years after they had become common on Android and even Blackberry devices). I don't think they would have gone back and re-published old press releases for an existing camera; they can't even be bothered to update instruction manuals for new firmware!

I am however very happy with SL2's non BSI CMOS sensor output even though it might be missing a one-stop +/- equivalent BSI advantage. But also, I am not a low light photographer in general, but my tripod is. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

True, but "BSI" wasn't a marketing bullet point until Sony "invented" it (the same way Apple "invented" OLED smartphones years after they had become common on Android and even Blackberry devices). I don't think they would have gone back and re-published old press releases for an existing camera; they can't even be bothered to update instruction manuals for new firmware!

When the M10-R and M10 Monochrom were introduced, Stefan Daniel said that the sensor had several improvements (derived from S3 sensor architecture), including 10% more light gathering/photons as a result of moving sensor electronics.  This sounds like BSI, while not using the term. (The other improvements involved dual gain architecture as well as modified pixel shape.)

Jeff

[theseahawk]

Any information on what is the new button on the upper left of the EVF housing?

[db24fps]

On 2/13/2024 at 1:04 AM, T.J. said:

Assuming the above is true, and for the reasons mentioned I hope it is not, does anyone have any recommendations for CF cards?  I generally shoot to both cards as a backup.   I'm thinking I might buy one big CF card and essentially use it as "internal memory."

I was using Delkin's (Black) cards with the Z9 and thought they were excellent. I'd assume the popular brands are all very reliable.

If the SL3 is truly getting CFE+UHSII then if you want to run both with one card serving as the backup then it makes little sense to pay for the fastest CF card as the camera's write speed will only be as fast as the slowest card in that configuration.

[LocalHero1953]

I use Delkin Power 1Tb in a Blackmagic Cinema Camera 6K, but that is for video.

[Planetwide]

9 hours ago, padam said:

Since when DXO is a reliable source. They have highly questionable antics regarding scoring various cameras.
If you want to see more useful test results, go to https://www.photonstophotos.net/

I can only say that the actual ISO and DR of an SL2 to my eyes is not particularly good compared to an S1 (which should be similar to an SL2-S).
I know we have good AI noise reduction these days - but it ain't doing much, if colours have already fallen apart.
So those scores are highly questionable.
(And it's not me saying that, it's everyone else who've owned and actually compared these cameras.)

I have owned all three BTW, Lets look at another source that reiterates what I have said. Here you can see that S1r exceeds the SL2 and is essentially the same as the SL2s...

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica SL2,Leica SL2-S,Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R

 

Edited February 16, 2024 by Planetwide

[SrMi]

56 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

I have owned all three BTW, Lets look at another source that reiterates what I have said. Here you can see that S1r exceeds the SL2 and is essentially the same as the SL2s...

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica SL2,Leica SL2-S,Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R

 

The graphs say that S1R applies in-camera noise reduction at lower ISOs. We do not know the PDR without NR. Also, since ISO values are not normalized, we do not know whether the graphs should be shifted left or right.

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

When the M10-R and M10 Monochrom were introduced, Stefan Daniel said that the sensor had several improvements (derived from S3 sensor architecture), including 10% more light gathering/photons as a result of moving sensor electronics.  This sounds like BSI, while not using the term. (The other improvements involved dual gain architecture as well as modified pixel shape.)

Jeff

SL2 is FSI. If the SL2 was BSI, it would be evident from any teardown because the wiring normally on the frontside of the sensor would be moved to the backside of the sensor.  Regarding Stefan's comments, making the microlenses smaller to provide BSI-like benefits to an FSI sensor doesn't make it a BSI sensor, it just makes it a better FSI sensor than it would be otherwise. Regardless, it largely irrelevant. We know how the SL2 performs, and it performs extremely well – on par with other last-of-their-kind FSI sensors like the one in the Canon R5.

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

SL2 is FSI. If the SL2 was BSI, it would be evident from any teardown because the wiring normally on the frontside of the sensor would be moved to the backside of the sensor.  Regarding Stefan's comments, making the microlenses smaller to provide BSI-like benefits to an FSI sensor doesn't make it a BSI sensor, it just makes it a better FSI sensor than it would be otherwise. Regardless, it largely irrelevant. We know how the SL2 performs, and it performs extremely well – on par with other last-of-their-kind FSI sensors like the one in the Canon R5.

I didn’t write anything about the SL2. The M10R/M sensors are different. I think Stefan referred to the back of the sensor when discussing changed electronics, but it was from a lengthy interview long ago.
 

Jeff

Edited February 17, 2024 by Jeff S

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

I didn’t write anything about the SL2. The M10R/M sensors are different. I think Stefan referred to the back of the sensor when discussing changed electronics, but it was from a lengthy interview long ago.
 

Jeff

M10-R should be FSI since I don't think Sony had a BSI sensor with the pixel pitch shared by the S3 and M10-R. Both the S3 and M10-R were likely cropped versions of the Sony IMX211, which is FSI.

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Edited February 17, 2024 by hdmesa

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[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

M10-R should be FSI since I don't think Sony had a BSI sensor with the pixel pitch shared by the S3 and M10-R. Both the S3 and M10-R were likely cropped versions of the Sony IMX211, which is FSI.

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Toni Felsner, S3 Product Manager, said that the S3 sensor architecture was produced specifically for that camera and not shared by any other camera. No wonder Leica needed to spread costs across two other products.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

Jeff

[hdmesa]

38 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Toni Felsner, S3 Product Manager, said that the S3 sensor architecture was produced specifically for that camera and not shared by any other camera. No wonder Leica needed to spread costs across two other products.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

Jeff

"You will not see this sensor technology in any other camera." – Sounds like cryptic marketing speak. Fujifilm recently called the new GFX 100 II sensor "all new" but turns out it's the same sensor as the 100/100S with some tweaks. If Toni was referring to BSI in that quote, then it would have been a false statement since BSI sensors had been around for a few years and were in use at the time. Then you have the curious case of the pixel pitch being identical to the IMX211. That would be crazy odds to randomly share a pixel pitch of 4.6 μm with a Sony sensor in production at the time. My guess would be either that Leica had Sony manufacture some sort of unique modification to the underlying IMX211 silicon – or Toni was excluding the Phase One cameras when making that statement, as Phase One cameras were largely irrelevant to the broad consumer photographic market and the only other camera system to use the IMX211 I believe.

Edited February 17, 2024 by hdmesa