SL3 Rumors

[Stuart Richardson]

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On 12/14/2023 at 2:30 PM, Planetwide said:

 

The SL2 is a good camera, but very limited.

 

I don't mean to pounce on just one line, but it really did startle me a bit. If you roll back five or six years, the SL2 would be the most advanced camera ever released. The SL2 is in no way a "very limited" camera. This is a camera that can natively use nearly every lens Leica has ever produced, puts out incredibly sharp 47mp photos, has 5 or 6 stops of stabilization with every lens, has a very sharp, high resolution viewfinder, takes very high quality video in many different formats with high bit rates and color depth. It has an industry leading multishot to do up to 187mp pictures, goes up to 50,000 ISO, no matter how much people complain about how poor its ISO is. It has very accurate autofocus, even if there are other brands that outdo it in speed and features. I am sorry, but I find it kind of ridiculous to think of this camera as limited. I am sure there are ways it can be improved, but I also think chasing every single feature is a good way to wind up with a camera that makes a number of compromises. By all means, try to make it better, but to consider this camera very limited is more of a failure on the part of the user than the camera.

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[Sohail]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:31 PM, Planetwide said:

The SL3 maybe a very good camera that will fix some of the significant shortcomings of the SL2 - no tilting screen for example.

If the lack of a tilting screen is a significant shortcoming then I think we're losing the plot. As far I'm concerned, the SL3 will be only marginally better. If it goes in the direction of the Q3, I'll be opting out. What I've always liked about the SL2 is the minimalist no-nonsense design. In fact, I'd be quite happy if they did away with video altogether. But of course, what brings the SL system all together is the world-leading APO lenses. Very little else matters when you have one of those lenses screwed onto the body as you look through that crisp EVF.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Sohail

[Planetwide]

6 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't mean to pounce on just one line, but it really did startle me a bit. If you roll back five or six years, the SL2 would be the most advanced camera ever released. The SL2 is in no way a "very limited" camera. This is a camera that can natively use nearly every lens Leica has ever produced, puts out incredibly sharp 47mp photos, has 5 or 6 stops of stabilization with every lens, has a very sharp, high resolution viewfinder, takes very high quality video in many different formats with high bit rates and color depth. It has an industry leading multishot to do up to 187mp pictures, goes up to 50,000 ISO, no matter how much people complain about how poor its ISO is. It has very accurate autofocus, even if there are other brands that outdo it in speed and features. I am sorry, but I find it kind of ridiculous to think of this camera as limited. I am sure there are ways it can be improved, but I also think chasing every single feature is a good way to wind up with a camera that makes a number of compromises. By all means, try to make it better, but to consider this camera very limited is more of a failure on the part of the user than the camera.

Taking one line out of context is what you are doing. At no point did I say the SL2 was a bad camera, in fact I said that it was a good camera, but limited. I was talking about its limitations vs the competition. 5-6 years ago doesn't matter, 20 years ago 8mp was being used - so what. I am talking about basically 2024, and the competition has moved on. At its introduction in 2019, it was every thing that you said. But, and it's a big but, today it is limited vs other options. High ISO is noisy compared to the competition, and therefore limiting. The AF is useless in continuous mode for anything with any substantial speed, and its face detect is at least a generation behind. Continuous AF does not work in video.  Of course absolute image quality and colour are at Leica levels. But, I need fast accurate AF, I need Tilt Shift Lenses, and most of all, I need light weight...

Leica is having to heavily discount lenses and bodies to sell them, and the big reason is the SL2 & SL2's perception in the marketplace. I really hope that Leica addresses these shortcomings with the SL3. The screen is a big issue, if you shoot video or from low angles etc... and it begs the question: why didn't they put it in? It will be in the SL3...

When I have to use another brand for most of my professional use, then I consider the system as limiting. We maybe talking about a much different use case, and as such, I do understand your comments. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Planetwide

[LocalHero1953]

17 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

When I have to use another brand for most of my professional use, then I consider the system as limiting. We maybe talking about a much different use case, and as such, I do understand your comments. 

Most professionals use another brand for professional work. I doubt Leica loses much sleep over that.

Many professionals state that they use a Leica for their personal work. That probably makes Leica happy!

Edited December 16, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Planetwide]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Most professionals use another brand for professional work. I doubt Leica loses much sleep over that.

Many professionals state that they use a Leica for their personal work. That probably makes Leica happy!

I know of only one other pro in my area that uses anything Leica, and its M. I also tend to use M for personal work, as I am not inclined to lug an SL system for such use. Actually, most of the pro's that I know, that had Leica, have now gone GFX. I am probably the last holdout using SL for anything professional. My circle of contacts may not represent the marketplace, but given my difficulty selling L mount glass lately, it may in fact be accurate.

[la1402]

12 hours ago, hansvons said:

That's why Leica is more successful than ever before, and that counts also for their used products. Other brands don't have the magic. It's not only marketing but an over generations built of look and feel. Leica’s main problem is not the optical perfection or brilliant ingenuity of the competition. It's how to convey this look and feel, the magic to future products.

[…]

Leica doesn't compete. They are singular.

Leica rode the wave of cheap money and booming economies like many other luxury brands over the last 10 years. 
Now as markets get back to normal and spending priorities become more scrutinized, they will have to justify their high premium with more than mystical magic. And the used market for Leica is pretty dead in the moment.
 

They are singular with M and Q only.
 

Of course they have to compete.  Especially with the SL, where their only true differentiator are their own fantastic APO lenses. The rest is more or less the same as from anyone else, just bigger, heavier and much more expensive. 
 

I hope they don’t think themselves that they don’t have to compete, but surprise us with a SL3 that combines technical state of the art with their unique design philosophy, while hopefully shedding a bit of weight and size….

[Planetwide]

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14 hours ago, hansvons said:

That's why Leica is more successful than ever before, and that counts also for their used products. Other brands don't have the magic. It's not only marketing but an over generations built of look and feel. Leica’s main problem is not the optical perfection or brilliant ingenuity of the competition. It's how to convey this look and feel, the magic to future products. 

Could Sony or Canon reissue iconic lenses from the 60ies? That's a vital part of Leica’s game. Leica doesn't compete. They are singular. Similar things can be said about Hasselblad. But its brand is by far not as strong and history-filled.

And now the infamous car comparison: would a petrolhead compare a 911 to anything else? Yes, they do (as do Leicaristi) and will lose in specs, but in the end, they know their brand is singular (the 911 is by far the most successful and iconic sports car in history), and call it a day. Porsche nurtures their heritage like nothing else. It's way more important than ingenuity, which is world-class, of course, as that is part of their heritage, and so is Leica’s.

It’s a complex dance that can only be performed if everybody involved, management, staff, and customers, listens to the same music. 

Off topic, but I can't help it  The best looking sports car is the Ferrari 250 GTO, followed by the V12 E-Type IMHO. The best selling sports car is the Ford Mustang.

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, la1402 said:

The used market for Leica is pretty dead in the moment.

Everybody knows that there is a new body on the way. Some photographers sell in anticipation, trying to "beat the market." Ironically, as you've figured-out, this depresses the used market.

It's a great time to buy.

19 hours ago, Planetwide said:

I am talking about basically 2024, and the competition has moved on. At its introduction in 2019, it was every thing that you said. But, and it's a big but, today it is limited vs other options. High ISO is noisy compared to the competition, and therefore limiting.

What's ironic about this statement is that Sony still uses their old 60MP sensor from 2019. In fact, they've doubled-down on it with their new a7r5, so it will be around until 2027... That old sensor was never as good as the 47MP sensor in the SL2/S1r/Q2, especially in low light. It's the famous "disappearing Milky Way" sensor.

14 hours ago, Planetwide said:

I know of only one other pro in my area that uses anything Leica, and its M.

It really depends on the market. Where I live, you'll see Leica being used professionally by high-end wedding shooters, but obviously not in press or similar work. I am interested in finding-out what kind of professional operates in your market. If they "switched from Leica to GFX," they weren't wedding shooters (GFX is only suitable for static group shots, and nobody ever wants those printed 2 meters wide). Are we talking landscape? It's not a niche where I live, but I could see that being a thing in a more touristy region. Fashion?

I find it strange that "pros" switch systems like bored trust-fund kids. Most professionals I know don't even update firmware without careful consideration and months of deliberation. There's too much on the line to switch-out entire systems on a whim. That can take years of sleepless nights! And yet I read in forums about pros who are basically camera-buying lemmings.

I think what's happening is that the "pro" market is now so tiny that any data point is amplified massively. I admire anyone who builds a photography business and manages to maintain a decent lifestyle from it, but that's rare these days. Frankly, the pro market is probably too small for Leica to bother with it at all.

[Stuart Richardson]

21 hours ago, Planetwide said:

Taking one line out of context is what you are doing. At no point did I say the SL2 was a bad camera, in fact I said that it was a good camera, but limited. I was talking about its limitations vs the competition. 5-6 years ago doesn't matter, 20 years ago 8mp was being used - so what. I am talking about basically 2024, and the competition has moved on. At its introduction in 2019, it was every thing that you said. But, and it's a big but, today it is limited vs other options. High ISO is noisy compared to the competition, and therefore limiting. The AF is useless in continuous mode for anything with any substantial speed, and its face detect is at least a generation behind. Continuous AF does not work in video.  Of course absolute image quality and colour are at Leica levels. But, I need fast accurate AF, I need Tilt Shift Lenses, and most of all, I need light weight...

Leica is having to heavily discount lenses and bodies to sell them, and the big reason is the SL2 & SL2's perception in the marketplace. I really hope that Leica addresses these shortcomings with the SL3. The screen is a big issue, if you shoot video or from low angles etc... and it begs the question: why didn't they put it in? It will be in the SL3...

When I have to use another brand for most of my professional use, then I consider the system as limiting. We maybe talking about a much different use case, and as such, I do understand your comments. 

It seems clear we have very different needs in our use. I work professionally as well, but not with events or commercial work. Primarily with art and artwork reproduction. Still, I don't really think that much has changed in my photography needs since 2019, and while there are improvements that I would be happy to see, I still think it is quite unfair to the camera to characterize it as "very limited" just because it does not excel in a few specific areas, like AFc, super high ISO and shooting with the camera at a low angle. This has always been the case in photography -- at the high end the cameras tend to be more differentiated by emphasis. A Leica R9 was a very different camera than the F6, for example. In any case, I hope you find a camera that fulfills your needs, whichever one that might be.

[Einst_Stein]

The only essential thing missing in Leica SL and all Leica AF is the CanKon BIF capable fast and accurate AF. 

[Planetwide]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

It really depends on the market. Where I live, you'll see Leica being used professionally by high-end wedding shooters, but obviously not in press or similar work. I am interested in finding-out what kind of professional operates in your market. If they "switched from Leica to GFX," they weren't wedding shooters (GFX is only suitable for static group shots, and nobody ever wants those printed 2 meters wide). Are we talking landscape? It's not a niche where I live, but I could see that being a thing in a more touristy region. Fashion?

I do not know any professional wedding photographer's that use Leica. The lack of reliable eye detect being the primary reason.

 

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

It really depends on the market. Where I live, you'll see Leica being used professionally by high-end wedding shooters, but obviously not in press or similar work. I am interested in finding-out what kind of professional operates in your market. If they "switched from Leica to GFX," they weren't wedding shooters (GFX is only suitable for static group shots, and nobody ever wants those printed 2 meters wide). Are we talking landscape? It's not a niche where I live, but I could see that being a thing in a more touristy region. Fashion?

Mostly for studio work and a couple of landscape photog's

 

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

I think what's happening is that the "pro" market is now so tiny that any data point is amplified massively. I admire anyone who builds a photography business and manages to maintain a decent lifestyle from it, but that's rare these days. Frankly, the pro market is probably too small for Leica to bother with it at all.

Agree'd. Personally, I do not switch systems at all - if I can help it. I have been with the SL line since inception. I moved back into Canon when they shipped the R5 and subsequently R3 series. This need was driven by ease of use, AF tracking (as mentioned) and primarily the availability of TS lenses for architectural work. Neither system is perfect, and both have their limitations.

When it comes to the SL line, let's face it, Leica has been on vacation for the last 4 years. At this price point, I guess, I expected more. In these posts, I have expressed my position and use case for the gear, that I buy and use. IMHO questioning the price to value relationship of Leica SL series gear, and the lack of satisfactory development is good. Some maybe offended, as they perceive that their favourite brand is being attacked. But that is not what I am doing here, as I said, I want innovation & I want more Leica designed and built lenses. Is this a bad thing?

As you have implied, if this system is primarily intended for wealthy non-professionals, who are happy with its current lens range - then Leica is on point. 

That said, I feel that the camera market is slowly reverting back to way it was during the film days, and back then, the SLR based R system did not survive...

Edited December 17, 2023 by Planetwide

[trickness]

Serving a niche well is how to survive in this age where iPhones and next A.I. is eating everyone's lunch. I highly doubt Leica sits around and strategizes how they can get more market share in wedding photography, or pro sports shooters. Leica is largely about image quality, legacy, and yes a certain element of luxury/prestige. By not trying to be Sony, they might actually outlast them. Because we're already on the threshold of the photographer being far less necessary in many commercial situations, and trying to compete with this via technical features along will ultimately be a loser's game. I'm not pissed that Leica isn't trying to compete with Canon any more than I'm pissed that Canon doesn't make a rangefinder.

If Leica wants to survive long term, then reliability and customer service need improvement most of all. That's something 99.9% of us will benefit from, mores than a global shutter or 100 megapixels. Some folks may expect everything for the money Leica charges but I personally don't expect a correlation between bleeding edge features and price. I'm at the stage where I actually enjoy/prefer having LESS technology. Just give me cleaner high ISO pictures, a body I can hammer nails in with, and I'm good.

 

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

When it comes to the SL line, let's face it, Leica has been on vacation for the last 4 years. At this price point, I guess, I expected more. In these posts, I have expressed my position and use case for the gear, that I buy and use. IMHO questioning the price to value relationship of Leica SL series gear, and the lack of satisfactory development is good. Some maybe offended, as they perceive that their favourite brand is being attacked. But that is not what I am doing here, as I said, I want innovation & I want more Leica designed and built lenses. Is this a bad thing?

No - as long as others can disagree with you without being characterised as "offended" because "their favourite brand is being attacked".

Edited December 17, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Olaf_ZG]

1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

I do not know any professional wedding photographer's that use Leica. The lack of reliable eye detect being the primary reason.

 

 

I admit I didn’t use Leica when doing weddings, but I never used eye detect either. But then, even in digital I kept the number of images low, relying on pre-focusing and so on. I guess the business changed. Would love to do a wedding with the m though…

[trickness]

1 hour ago, Olaf_ZG said:

I admit I didn’t use Leica when doing weddings, but I never used eye detect either. But then, even in digital I kept the number of images low, relying on pre-focusing and so on. I guess the business changed. Would love to do a wedding with the m though…

Plenty of hipsters are using M bodies for weddings now - it's all over YouTube!

Edited December 17, 2023 by trickness

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

Plenty of hipsters are using M bodies for weddings now - it's all over YouTube!

I don't know if they would be classed as hipsters, but I know a few successful M wedding shooters. Mostly in the documentary style, which many couples want. It's certainly less intrusive to the guests than the "EOS with a huge zoom and flash" style. 

Your wedding your choice. Picking a high-end wedding photographer is a matter of finding someone that matches your esthetic sense. Any good pro will deliver a solid set of images. 

[trickness]

8 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I don't know if they would be classed as hipsters, but I know a few successful M wedding shooters. Mostly in the documentary style, which many couples want. It's certainly less intrusive to the guests than the "EOS with a huge zoom and flash" style. 

Your wedding your choice. Picking a high-end wedding photographer is a matter of finding someone that matches your esthetic sense. Any good pro will deliver a solid set of images. 

My comment was about some YouTube videos, not about the purgatory that is wedding photography 😑

[robb]

1 minute ago, trickness said:

My comment was about some YouTube videos, not about the purgatory that is wedding photography 😑

Def purgatory…

Robb

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I shot weddings exclusively with Leicas for a decade. M9’s then M 240’s then SL’s then SL2’s.

I get that eye AF makes life easier but the eye AF on the SL2 is more than what a wedding shooter needs, even if it’s behind Sony levels (which I also have). Brides don’t tend to run around in circles like a 2year old or a puppy. Actually if you practice the craft you can easily follow a bride with an M.

And for a bit of fun I shot my last wedding ever on a GFX100S. Didn’t miss a shot. Like, I don’t think a single image was out of focus…. It just isn’t that hard if you’ve developed the skill set.

Modern tools certainly do make life easier. But a bit of practice and a lot of experience always trumps gear. Newbies can go out and use Sony tracking to get everything sharp. Experienced shooters just don’t need that to get the same or better results. If I were shooting weddings still (glad to be out) I would definitely use eye AF, if the camera I liked to shoot with had it. Not because the results or hit rate would be higher. Just because I’m lazy.

Gordon

p.s. I liked shooting weddings. Someone paid me a lot of money to take photos and drink wine. Some couldn’t handle the pressure. I thrived in it. Processing on the other hand……

Edited December 17, 2023 by FlashGordonPhotography

[slimsnapped]

Just wrapped up wedding season 2.5 with my SL2, mostly using M mount lenses with the occasional AF lens. It has been more than enough for almost every scenario. At one point it was paired with a Q2 that was mostly used for reception time and dancing, but the SL2 has been a workhorse for Studio work, on location portraits, commerical, corporate events, and weddings with no complaints from my clients. Does sticky eye af make things that much easier, sure. Is it needed, no. 
 

I think if Leica got their repair times down, a pro program in order, and reliability up they would be better of for pushing the SL system to professionals. My SL2 is currently off for a CLA and a hotshoe issue, and depending on what the possible turnaround time is, I might start next wedding season with the just the M11 and ZF.