SL3 Rumors

[Dex_Keshin]

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Leica Rumors’ latest rumor suggests SL3 will be announced in March 2024 with different megapixel resolutions. A silver Leica SL2 camera is rumored to be announced in June (limited to 1,000 units worldwide). A special Leica SL2-S camera is rumored to be released later this year.
 

https://leicarumors.com/2023/05/09/whats-next-for-leica-updated-rumors-recap.aspx/

[LocalHero1953]

10 minutes ago, Dex_Keshin said:

Leica Rumors’ latest rumor suggests SL3 will be announced in March 2024 with different megapixel resolutions. A silver Leica SL2 camera is rumored to be announced in June (limited to 1,000 units worldwide). A special Leica SL2-S camera is rumored to be released later this year.
 

https://leicarumors.com/2023/05/09/whats-next-for-leica-updated-rumors-recap.aspx/

March 2024 - a bit over three years since the SL2-S that I bought at launch, so I can't complain. Four and a third years from the SL2 though.

In speculation mode..........I am curious about sales of the SL2-S vs the SL2, and whether that has influenced design, the development time and launch date of the SL3 i.e. has the SL2-S proved unexpectedly popular, so they have rejigged the concept of the SL3 a bit away from megapixels and more towards 'real' image quality (colours, rendering, dynamic range, low light performance).

[helged]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

March 2024 - a bit over three years since the SL2-S that I bought at launch, so I can't complain. Four and a third years from the SL2 though.

In speculation mode..........I am curious about sales of the SL2-S vs the SL2, and whether that has influenced design, the development time and launch date of the SL3 i.e. has the SL2-S proved unexpectedly popular, so they have rejigged the concept of the SL3 a bit away from megapixels and more towards 'real' image quality (colours, rendering, dynamic range, low light performance).

It is my understanding that the mp race continues, also for SL3 (and a mirrorless S4). 

[MediaFotografie]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb LocalHero1953:

March 2024 - a bit over three years since the SL2-S that I bought at launch, so I can't complain. Four and a third years from the SL2 though.

no, SL2 was released in November 2019, so this would mean something like 4,5 years

[trickness]

I still think SL2 will be announced in the fall at the latest. Next spring is too far away, this camera needs phase detect autofocus to compete in the market, can't see it sitting for another year unchanged.

[frame-it]

10 minutes ago, trickness said:

in the fall at the latest.

doubt it's this year

i think the SL3 development is deeply entwined with the S4

gone are the old days when Leica could announce a product and then start delivering many months later, now they have to deliver the day they announce a product, which they have been doing for some years already [in some regions more than others ;)]

Edited May 14, 2023 by frame-it

[LocalHero1953]

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1 hour ago, MediaFotografie said:

no, SL2 was released in November 2019, so this would mean something like 4,5 years

Well, it's hardly a paradigm-shifting difference, but you may want to check your arithmetic😉.

[trickness]

55 minutes ago, frame-it said:

doubt it's this year

i think the SL3 development is deeply entwined with the S4

gone are the old days when Leica could announce a product and then start delivering many months later, now they have to deliver the day they announce a product, which they have been doing for some years already [in some regions more than others ;)]

we will see.

[Olaf_ZG]

7 hours ago, Dex_Keshin said:

A special Leica SL2-S camera is rumored to be released later this year.

Who cares about silver, mickey mouse or what ever colour? Real special would be a SL2-sm… which I would buy straight away…

[Olaf_ZG]

57 minutes ago, frame-it said:

 

gone are the old days when Leica could announce a product and then start delivering many months later

Well, in comparison the waiting time for the sl21-24 lenses, some months looks rather short…

[LocalHero1953]

22 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Who cares about silver, mickey mouse or what ever colour? Real special would be a SL2-sm… which I would buy straight away…

Mmmm......leather covered with brass studs, and a strap with big buckles......and a revealing black PVC half case.

[Olaf_ZG]

20 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Mmmm......leather covered with brass studs, and a strap with big buckles......and a revealing black PVC half case.

Probably internal code name would be either “Helga” or “herr Flick”.

[helged]

2 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Probably internal code name would be either “Helga” or “herr Flick”.

I'm happy as long as "Helge" is kept out of the code name list. And if it isn't, I would certainly accept an invitation as beta-tester... 

3 hours ago, frame-it said:

I think the SL3 development is deeply entwined with the S4

Correct (not responding as a beta-tester 😉, but based on statements from people close to Wetzlar). 

[beewee]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Mmmm......leather covered with brass studs, and a strap with big buckles......and a revealing black PVC half case.

Add some spikes and tassels and some people will see the appeal and Buy Definitely Same Moment it hits the shelves. 😉 

[beewee]

4 hours ago, frame-it said:

i think the SL3 development is deeply entwined with the S4

There’s been speculation (and hints) that the S system will be replaced by a mirrorless MF system in 2025 (or maybe later). In this case, there may never be a MF DSLR S4.

If there’s one system that sells more poorly than the SL, it’s the S system. I honestly wonder why Leica hasn’t discontinued the S system. The only reason I can think of is that maybe it’s a loss-leader that, at least 10+ years ago, was worth it for Leica because it was what’s needed to achieve the utmost image quality possible in a reasonably portable system, money be damned. However, with the APO SL primes, this has really changed the definition of what’s achievable in a 35mm platform. Even Leica admits that the SL lenses are of higher resolving power than the S lenses. In addition, with the official discontinuation of the Hasselblad H-system, one has to wonder how many people are willing to lug around a giant kit for not a whole lot of gain in image quality.

With all that said, Leica has gradually introduced new technology to every single camera they’ve released over the years when that technology has become mature enough for a body. The original Q was a stepping stone for the development of the SL (typ 601). The Q2 had more or less the same sensor as the SL2, while the SL2-S benefited from some improved sensor filters from the S3. The M11 got a 60 MP sensor (likely a variant of the Sony IMX455 with some customization) and now there’s speculation that the Q2 will have a similar sensor to the M11 in addition to PDAF (probably same as Lumix S5ii) along with the new processor co-developed by Leica and Panasonic. I expect if the Q2 doesn’t get the same processor as the S5ii (maybe rebranded and/or tweaked), the SL3 will probably get it, as will the Lumix S1ii, S1Rii, S1Hii.

It’s very unlikely that we will see the same pace of imaging technology improvements that we got in the early 2000s when we transitioned from film to digital. That was a paradigm shift but now we’re in the a state of constant refinement. The camera market has also changed significantly over the years and there’s a lot less money being invested into stand-alone cameras because of the popularity and the ‘good enough’ quality of smartphone photos. Case in point, I was at a wedding reception a few days ago and I was the only person (among a crowd of ~50 people) carrying a camera that wasn’t also a phone. And the only reason I brought my SL2-S was because the groom asked me to take some photos for him. Otherwise, I too would have just used my iPhone. It was a real shocker for me as I hadn’t attended a wedding reception in over a decade and how much things have changed since.

One has to wonder, who are buying mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras these days and for what reason? The main demographic I can think of are professional photographers servicing journalism wedding photography, youtubers, and middle-upper class photography enthusiasts for travel and maybe capturing memories of their kids/pets/family. From this perspective, in order for camera manufacturers to survive, they must heavily cater to these users so this will largely shape how the camera industry will evolve and the resulting products that will be released.

Edited May 14, 2023 by beewee

[John Smith]

3 hours ago, beewee said:

There’s been speculation (and hints) that the S system will be replaced by a mirrorless MF system in 2025 (or maybe later). In this case, there may never be a MF DSLR S4.

If there’s one system that sells more poorly than the SL, it’s the S system. I honestly wonder why Leica hasn’t discontinued the S system. The only reason I can think of is that maybe it’s a loss-leader that, at least 10+ years ago, was worth it for Leica because it was what’s needed to achieve the utmost image quality possible in a reasonably portable system, money be damned. However, with the APO SL primes, this has really changed the definition of what’s achievable in a 35mm platform. Even Leica admits that the SL lenses are of higher resolving power than the S lenses. In addition, with the official discontinuation of the Hasselblad H-system, one has to wonder how many people are willing to lug around a giant kit for not a whole lot of gain in image quality.

With all that said, Leica has gradually introduced new technology to every single camera they’ve released over the years when that technology has become mature enough for a body. The original Q was a stepping stone for the development of the SL (typ 601). The Q2 had more or less the same sensor as the SL2, while the SL2-S benefited from some improved sensor filters from the S3. The M11 got a 60 MP sensor (likely a variant of the Sony IMX455 with some customization) and now there’s speculation that the Q2 will have a similar sensor to the M11 in addition to PDAF (probably same as Lumix S5ii) along with the new processor co-developed by Leica and Panasonic. I expect if the Q2 doesn’t get the same processor as the S5ii (maybe rebranded and/or tweaked), the SL3 will probably get it, as will the Lumix S1ii, S1Rii, S1Hii.

It’s very unlikely that we will see the same pace of imaging technology improvements that we got in the early 2000s when we transitioned from film to digital. That was a paradigm shift but now we’re in the a state of constant refinement. The camera market has also changed significantly over the years and there’s a lot less money being invested into stand-alone cameras because of the popularity and the ‘good enough’ quality of smartphone photos. Case in point, I was at a wedding reception a few days ago and I was the only person (among a crowd of ~50 people) carrying a camera that wasn’t also a phone. And the only reason I brought my SL2-S was because the groom asked me to take some photos for him. Otherwise, I too would have just used my iPhone. It was a real shocker for me as I hadn’t attended a wedding reception in over a decade and how much things have changed since.

One has to wonder, who are buying mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras these days and for what reason? The main demographic I can think of are professional photographers servicing journalism wedding photography, youtubers, and middle-upper class photography enthusiasts for travel and maybe capturing memories of their kids/pets/family. From this perspective, in order for camera manufacturers to survive, they must heavily cater to these users so this will largely shape how the camera industry will evolve and the resulting products that will be released.

i purchased the S system, and loved it. But later switched over to the SL and SL2 because, well, the writing was on the wall. I have invested a lot in the SL system; I don't foresee spending bunch of money on a bump up on sensor size. It's hard to see what else the S4 would bring to the table.  

The other day I was out with my SL2 with the 50APO-M. A gal turned around and said, "Wow, you're going analog." At first I thought she was talking about film. She was talking about the fact that I had a real camera with me. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by John Smith

[Planetwide]

I see the camera industry as reverting back to the way it was in the film days. Upper level bodies lenses are used by Professionals and wealthy/amateurs.

The Professional photographer is now and endangered species. ChatGBT, the price collapse in stock & news photography, and the continued erosion of margins will ultimately cause/are causing another watershed moment. Not all will disappear, but prices need to move higher for sustainability.

Mid level mirrorless will still exist for a while. People still like small light bodies and lenses.

There will always be a market for small camera's like the Q series, Sony FE, Fuji's etc...

As we all know, entry level mirrorless & compact camera's have essentially been replaced by phones. Phones will become more and more capable.

Leica is in a unique space, the uniqueness and resilience of the M system, and their perceived quality difference somewhat insulate them from market forces. But for how long? The S system is dead in the water IMHO. Fuji essentially owns that space. Leica is somewhat tied to the Panasonic development timeline vis a vis the S1R II etc... Regrettably, Panasonic seems to have slowed development and 4-5 years is a LONG time between bodies. Close to one complete development cycle for other manufacturers.

Leica has a self induced sales problem with the SL series, and they need new bodies and lenses to reinvigorate the line. In the absence of new bodies, they should have concentrated on the lens introductions. Primes and amazing zooms would have been a strong draw to the series. Currently, their only differentiator is their lenses and look.

You would think that there would be a rush to get phase detect AF to market. 

Canon, Sony, and Nikon are now well established in the 50-60mp space with lenses that resolve at this level. They are continuing with constant and innovative lens introductions. Consequently, Leica's traditional lens excellence and perceived quality difference is slowly being eroded. Having amazing Summicrons, a couple of zooms and rebadged Sigma's with out of date bodies is not a recipe for success.

Has anybody seen a Zeiss lens introduction lately?

Just some musings... Thanks for reading. Tell me I am wrong.

IMHO

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Planetwide

[hansvons]

@Planetwide you are wrong, of course 😉. 

I think that the SL3 will be specs-wise on par with the top tier offerings from CNS and only a bit more expensive. Lenses are more expensive, of course, but offer that certain something no other brand does. 
Journalists don’t care about Leica and won’t switch to the SL3,  but fashion and other photographers that work in the editorial and advertising industry do care. They can leverage the storytelling Leica offers and won’t be pushed away by an outdated AF.

You are right, at the moment the SL system feels a bit outdated. But in Leica terms that’s a feature at times , not for the SL line though.

[frame-it]

20 minutes ago, hansvons said:

advertising industry

RE: AI>>

changing soon, for certain applications within agencies

https://bit.ly/40yICpK

https://adage.com/article/agency-news/how-agencies-use-ai-image-generators-dalle-e-2-midjourney-and-stable-diffusion/2430126

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/ai-tool-ai-deate-will-empower-agencies-and-creative-professionals

https://adsofbrands.net/en/news/ogilvy-paris-thinks-outside-the-frame-using-ai-to-extend-its-25-year-ad-saga-for-nestle-s-la-laitie/3588

https://brandingforum.org/branding/campaigns/feeding-america-leo-burnett-hunger/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by frame-it

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[hansvons]

14 minutes ago, frame-it said:

35 minutes ago, hansvons said:

 

RE: AI>>

changing soon, for certain applications within agencies

Already using machine learning in compositing. But I’m shooting now 50% of my editorial/campaign stuff on B/W negative. Clients love it. AI will change tons of stuff, but analogue creativity will still have its place for a long time. AI is more about prompting than anything else. As long as AI doesn’t do that human creativity is going nowhere.