I can repeatedly reproduce overexposure now

[Tailwagger]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 minutes ago, ELAN said:

@Tailwagger In my examples I deliberately tried to keep the lighting constant and in single shot mode.  I did not wish to trick the camera or challenge it with edge cases. I was trying to replicate what I see in day-to-day normal use.  

Didn't say that you were and I was very deliberate in mentioning that I thought this scenario was unlikely. But as I and other's haven't been able to reproduce the issue, I'm looking for potential explanations as to how the exposure could get fooled and accidental locking of the exposure is potentially one of them. 

[ELAN]

1 minute ago, Tailwagger said:

Didn't say that you were and I was very deliberate in mentioning that I thought this scenario was unlikely. But as I and other's haven't been able to reproduce the issue, I'm looking for potential explanations as to how the exposure could get fooled and accidental locking of the exposure is potentially one of them. 

Quite a few forum members have reported this overexposure issue over the past year.  I have seen it on my M11 from day one.  Not every day but often enough.  As for a potential explanation of why it happens, my theory has been that when shooting rapidly metering occurs while the shutter is still re-opening after the prior shot has been taken.  That's why I see different amounts of overexposure (2 to 5 stops), depending how open the shutter is when metering in-between shots occurs.

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, ELAN said:

Quite a few forum members have reported this overexposure issue over the past year.  I have seen it on my M11 from day one.  Not every day but often enough.  As for a potential explanation of why it happens, my theory has been that when shooting rapidly metering occurs while the shutter is still re-opening after the prior shot has been taken.  That's why I see different amounts of overexposure (2 to 5 stops), depending how open the shutter is when metering in-between shots occurs.

Yes, I'm aware you're not the only one, but this issue does not seem to be an epidemic unlike some of the others we've encountered over the past year.  Might be down to a few more extreme users, dunno.  Regardless, I just tried yet again to reproduce the problem by mashing the shutter button as fast as I could while focused on a single target. This time I did several sessions of 15-20 frames at a time using multiple lighting conditions which resulted in both higher and lower shutter speeds as well as ISO values. Probably around 3fps initially until the buffer filled.  At the speed I was pressing I could clearly see the VF rocking up and down, so I was way, way over any practical actuation limit.  After a few sessions, around 100+ frames, never saw the problem.

It then occurred to me, as you mentioned the shutter and as I always have the V2 attached and shoot in LV, to try again in non-LV.  After a few tries, I saw something that slightly resembled what you have encountered.  A single frame, taken deep in the sequence, shot 20 out of 21, taken when the buffer was full and then cleared.  Whereas every previous image was taken at ISO100 1/40",  the rogue shot jumped to 200 ISO and 1/45".  This resulted resulted is a marginally brighter shot, though not over exposed and nothing that ever I would have given a second thought to were it not for this discussion.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

It is interesting that the only time I could even get even remotely close to, I won't say reproduce, what you're seeing is in non-LV mode which as we know does do a slightly more complex shutter sequence than LV.   That leads me to wonder if you are not shooting in LV when this happens, if you can make it happen in LV as well. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Tailwagger

[Photoworks]

It does happen with AUTO ISO and rapid fire in single frame. I have reproduced it many time and sent data to support.

I think it has something to do with exposure reading in between shots.

Will have to wait for a new firmware for a fix. 

[elmars]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Tailwagger:

Apologies, only took a year of German many years ago in college so I can't translate (other than google perhaps). 

Yes, that is what I'm saying. It might be caused by that. If the user fails to fully release the shutter in between shots, its possible to carry those setting over and then incorrectly expose the next shot.  This could also happen if one rested one's finger on the shutter button prior to shooting.  I could imagine that if one was in a hurry, as you raised the camera, you could unknowingly half press and, again, get an incorrect exposure.  As typically if the camera is pointed down there is less light, when it comes up, the frame would be over exposed.  I asked about the soft release as I could imagine that either scenario would be more likely to happen with a squishy release, which is why I asked if the OP had one. 

My English is certainly worse than your German. I often use deepL to write here.

I also once thought overexposure was related to accidentally having the exposure lock still enabled. That may be sometimes, but I paid attention and there are cases of overexposure that definitely have nothing to do with the exposure lock.

You can provoke the overexposure partly by exposing a lot and quickly in succession, but partly not, at least not me. I also get overexposures when I take normal photos. Sometimes I have the impression that it happens more often directly after raising the camera to take a picture, but the camera is not in standby.

Translated with DeepL

[Tailwagger]

8 hours ago, elmars said:

Sometimes I have the impression that it happens more often directly after raising the camera to take a picture, but the camera is not in standby.

This is why I was wondering if some folks see this on the first shot due to getting in the habit of taking the camera out of standby via a half press before it reaches the eye. Starts to become more a reflex than a conscious action and therefore might not be fully aware they are doing it.   But both things can be true. Some OEs occur due to user error, but there's a bug in there as well. 

Perhaps fanciful, but from your observation if motion is involved, perhaps there is an issue related to perspective control.  We know the numbers are being calculated regardless of whether it is enabled or not. When the camera is moving up to the eye or when mashing on the shutter button where the camera rocks rapidly up and down there would certainly be a lot of data being generated. I also recall some lockups related to PC early on with the 10-R, so it is reasonable to assume that the code is at least capable of causing a serious problem.  If PC has to lock metering/sensor for brief periods of time, perhaps it's involved in some way. Unfortunately, as it can not be turned off, there's no way to know one way or the other.  

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Tailwagger

[Photoworks]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

21 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

This is why I was wondering if some folks see this on the first shot due to getting in the habit of taking the camera out of standby via a half press before it reaches the eye. Starts to become more a reflex than a conscious action and therefore might not be fully aware they are doing it.   But both things can be true. Some OEs occur due to user error, but there's a bug in there as well. 

Perhaps fanciful, but from your observation if motion is involved, perhaps there is an issue related to perspective control.  We know the numbers are being calculated regardless of whether it is enabled or not. When the camera is moving up to the eye or when mashing on the shutter button where the camera rocks rapidly up and down there would certainly be a lot of data being generated. I also recall some lockups related to PC early on with the 10-R, so it is reasonable to assume that the code is at least capable of causing a serious problem.  If PC has to lock metering/sensor for brief periods of time, perhaps it's involved in some way. Unfortunately, as it can not be turned off, there's no way to know one way or the other.  

 

I never had that issue.

All my overexposure are in a set of many images in rangefinder mode, Auto ISO, and framing the same subject. Single frame mode.

[ELAN]

On 2/13/2023 at 5:05 PM, Photoworks said:

All my overexposure are in a set of many images in rangefinder mode, Auto ISO, and framing the same subject. Single frame mode.

My experiences with overexposure are exactly the same.

[elmars]

I also have such overexposures, but in addition individual outliers, especially after raising the camera.

[Qlan]

Just got an overexposure today. Took the first picture without issue. Then the menu button wasn't responsible but the shutter was working. Took a picture (same subject, same conditions, etc), and it turned out overexposed (2500 ISO vs 64 ISO on the previous pic).

[Warton]

I think the camera stops metering when it’s in display mode where a picture is played back on the LCD screen. It’s fairly easy to reproduce and prove it.

In a relatively dark environment, set the shutter speed to say 1/250 and iso to be auto and max to i.e 12500. Then play a picture back by pressing the display button, at this point of time the camera stops metering and the exposure stays as what it was before. With the picture still displayed, point the camera to the bright sky and take the picture right away. I mean  right away, with one click of shutter release, that takes the lcd out of displaying pictures AND taking the picture with one press. You will see a flat white screen with iso 12500

[EJS73]

Under firmware 1.6.1 a quick test of the motordrive resulted in identical exposures for all frames whereas before the'd vary with the occasional blow-out.

[ELAN]

Under firmware 1.6.1 I can no longer provoke overexposure as I described in posts above. Thank you Leica. We’ll see how it goes in day-to-day use. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by ELAN

[Warton]

6 hours ago, ELAN said:

Under firmware 1.6.1 I can no longer provoke overexposure as I described in posts above. Thank you Leica. We’ll see how it goes in day-to-day use. 

me neither. I could no longer provoke the overexposure anymore using the same strategy as before that I could always 100% provoke overexposure.

I feel Leica this time really fixed it.

Not sure about freeze up though. I will give it more time.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Warton

[Krzysztof]

I bought M11 2 months ago and yes this happened to me 3 times already.  And it's not an user error, it happened when I was taking 3 quick shots of the same scene. No LCD preview, no recomposition etc. Just 3 quick shots and out of nowhere second frame is completely blown out. I'm using autoiso + multi field/ highlight weighted. I really hope they will fix this in next firmware.

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Krzysztof said:

I bought M11 2 months ago and yes this happened to me 3 times already.  And it's not an user error, it happened when I was taking 3 quick shots of the same scene. No LCD preview, no recomposition etc. Just 3 quick shots and out of nowhere second frame is completely blown out. I'm using autoiso + multi field/ highlight weighted. I really hope they will fix this in next firmware.

Which firmware version are you running on your M11?

[elmars]

There are still overexposures with version 1.6.1. Leica knows this, I hope they find the bug.

[Krzysztof]

I’m on 1.6.1. 

[geotrupede]

One -unresolved- thing is the intermediate -between clicks- position of the shutter speed selector, basically it can jump to 'B' or other slow speed when going from 1/250 to 1/500th etc.

 To see the problem move between steps slowly and check on the rear screen the speed, alternatively use EVF with exposure preview and expect a flash of light here and there. I have filmed this problem a while back and shared with leica who did indeed manage to replicate on their cameras... 

I thing this is a mechanical issue.

G>

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Krzysztof]

Unfortunately this is the buggiest M camera I ever used. Camera doesn't even set correctly shutter speeds when you use Auto ISO. Set your shutter speed limit to 1/500 it will give you 1/640, set it to 1/250 it will use 1/320 etc. Ehh small one, but I can't believe it wasn't fixed after few firmware updates.