M11 - Low Light Performance + Shutter Sound

[Jeff S]

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Can you arrange a demo with a good dealer? No answers here can substitute for your own experience, distinguished by your own workflow (shooting/editing/ printing/ display) and specific assessment standards.

Jeff

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[Lee S]

1 minute ago, Photoworks said:

If you get a camera that you actually like to take everywhere will improve your photography. The M camera does it for me.
You get more exercise and more practice.

all the Sony stay in the case at home. I only picked them up if I need to.

I’m rarely without the M10, I just want better low light performance from it.

One of the reasons I bought the M is I feel more comfortable using it in public compared to my A73 with its 85mm F1.4 bolted to it! 

 

[Photoworks]

24 minutes ago, Lee S said:

I’m rarely without the M10, I just want better low light performance from it.

One of the reasons I bought the M is I feel more comfortable using it in public compared to my A73 with its 85mm F1.4 bolted to it! 

 

the M10 is probably the same as the Sony in low light,
I don't think you can go in contrary to the law of physics, newer camera can get more details and better color in low light, but don't aspect miracles.
I would learn to shoot with faster lenses and don't go over 6400.
When I was shooting Film asa 1600 was already crazy high.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Lee S said:

I’m aware the M11 certainly won’t help me take better photos and nor will a new lens.

I also own a Sony A73 and enjoy its output for low light situations and looking for an M that could match its low light performance, I wondered if the M11 could match it.

 

In that case Topaz Photo AI will be much more effective than any camera. 

[wlaidlaw]

If you are going to buy a Topaz product, sign up with them and you should find that they hold regular sales with hefty discounts. I bought Gigapixel and Sharpen but not De-noise, as with my M10-R, I feel little need for it. Usually I just mount a faster lens or use a support rather than exploring the upper limits of the ISO range, so nowadays, noise is not really something I come across. 

Wilson

[Lee S]

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

the M10 is probably the same as the Sony in low light,
I don't think you can go in contrary to the law of physics, newer camera can get more details and better color in low light, but don't aspect miracles.
I would learn to shoot with faster lenses and don't go over 6400.
When I was shooting Film asa 1600 was already crazy high.

I’d certainly say the A73 has at least 1 stop better performance than the M10 with the added benefit of IBIS which helps use lower shutter speed / higher ISO. 

[Lee S]

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

In that case Topaz Photo AI will be much more effective than any camera. 

Thanks will give it a trial although most of my workflow is on iPhone/iPad via Lightroom Mobile.

L

[jaapv]

I’m not sure that you can get any Leica-worthy results from that workflow. 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, Lee S said:

Thanks will give it a trial although most of my workflow is on iPhone/iPad via Lightroom Mobile.

L

Low light performance would be far down my list of output optimization concerns in that case.

Jeff

[Lee S]

13 hours ago, jaapv said:

I’m not sure that you can get any Leica-worthy results from that workflow. 

😃 I’m intrigued what a Leica-worthy results workflow looks like and why it needs to be different? I pay for a good camera and lens to minimise how much post processing workflow I need to do.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Lee S

[jaapv]

Actually that is not what you pay for and a Leica M will need a more elaborate workflow than some other cameras  
The camera does not take the photograph-it hands you the tool to do so. Then it is up to you to process the half product properly. If you do so using social media tools, the result will be social media level and a waste of the data the camera provides. The idea that a camera takes and produces the end result with just an iPhone tweak comes from the computer (and in the film era Wallmart) world, has been embraced by part of the community that uses highly automated cameras -like Sony amongst others, and is the opposite of the Leica philosophy. 

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem at all with people recording the world around them in the most techno-comfortable way, or professionals streamlining their commercial work,  but it has nothing to do with the effort Leica takes -and charges for- to provide the optimum vehicle for creativity, of which the M series cameras are the expression.

So if you tell us that you do your editing on an iPhone or iPad in Lightroom mobile, which is intended for a quick fix for social media and transferring your files to your desktop for proper finishing, you tell us at the same time that your original question is irrelevant to the results you will get.

[Lee S]

13 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Actually that is not what you pay for and a Leica M will need a more elaborate workflow than some other cameras  
The camera does not take the photograph-it hands you the tool to do so. Then it is up to you to process the half product properly. If you do so using social media tools, the result will be social media level and a waste of the data the camera provides. The idea that a camera takes and produces the end result with just an iPhone tweak comes from the computer (and in the film era Wallmart) world, has been embraced by part of the community that uses highly automated cameras -like Sony amongst others, and is the opposite of the Leica philosophy. 

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem at all with people recording the world around them in the most techno-comfortable way, or professionals streamlining their commercial work,  but it has nothing to do with the effort Leica takes -and charges for- to provide the optimum vehicle for creativity, of which the M series cameras are the expression.

So if you tell us that you do your editing on an iPhone or iPad in Lightroom mobile, which is intended for a quick fix for social media and transferring your files to your desktop for proper finishing, you tell us at the same time that your original question is irrelevant to the results you will get.

Thanks for the constructive response. My laptop is around 10 years old with a mechanical drive, it really does not like  full Lightroom at all hence using mobile tools.

A computer is planned for this year. Will buy one that can run lightroom/topaz AI properly and see the output before upgrading the camera. 

[jaapv]

That sounds like a solid plan! I would prioritize it over upgrading the camera. Make sure that, if you are looking at a desktop, to get a good screen for photo editing like Eizo CS or BenQ etc and look for an M1 chipped Mac. 

[Jeff S]

And, most importantly, take the time to learn effective post processing… just as with the camera, the best PP tools don’t ensure success; that’s up to user skills and abilities, mostly involving good judgment and decision making.  

Jeff

[Photoworks]

I just like to caution about all this AI programs.

I have the Topaz set of tools, Topaz Photo AI is just a combination of the other programs in one, Capable of reducing noise sharpening and scaling, at it uses subject or face detection to optimize.
I does't make cool contrast or any other adjustments. In fact the image you and up with is often not organic and need work. You will notice a patch work of noise and sharp areas, it looks like a mismatched puzzle .

The sharpening and GIGA tools often create and image from you image, the ad details and create unrealistic imagery, changing hair, ear and other crazy shapes.

I think it is more a special tool when you need an important correction on a single image. It is a slow process anyway .

If you ask me you will find more pleasure in using the traditional tools. Capture one, Lightroom, DxO, and so on.

 

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[IzelPhotography]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

So if you tell us that you do your editing on an iPhone or iPad in Lightroom mobile, which is intended for a quick fix for social media and transferring your files to your desktop for proper finishing, you tell us at the same time that your original question is irrelevant to the results you will get.

I love the iPhone and iPad apps for work but not as a finishing tool. I tend to use them to edit/sort out the best images and bin the rejected ones. I'll even use them as an initial pre edit by making rudimentary tweaks so that I'm left with less mucking around when I get to my desk... I can just crack on with the heavy lifting on a full size calibrated screen so I can inspect, correct then process properly. The apps have their place and I wouldn't want to be without them but they're not really suited for producing finished work.

Edited January 26, 2023 by IzelPhotography

[jaapv]

I don’t agree with you evaluation. These tools are part of the overall processing workflow, to be used as needed There is a learning curve for their application as they provide full control. Photo AI is a mild combination that is best used at the beginning of the postprocessing. Make sure to view at 100% to pick up possible artifacts. I always switch the sharpening function off. Gigapixels is great to prepare for extreme cropping but I prefer Adobe Enhance. 
Tools like these are the same as everything thing else in photography. The user determines the outcome, don’t trust them to get to an optimal result automatically. 

 

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

I just like to caution about all this AI programs.

I have the Topaz set of tools, Topaz Photo AI is just a combination of the other programs in one, Capable of reducing noise sharpening and scaling, at it uses subject or face detection to optimize.
I does't make cool contrast or any other adjustments. In fact the image you and up with is often not organic and need work. You will notice a patch work of noise and sharp areas, it looks like a mismatched puzzle .

The sharpening and GIGA tools often create and image from you image, the ad details and create unrealistic imagery, changing hair, ear and other crazy shapes.

I think it is more a special tool when you need an important correction on a single image. It is a slow process anyway .

If you ask me you will find more pleasure in using the traditional tools. Capture one, Lightroom, DxO, and so on.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[Photoworks]

41 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I don’t agree with you evaluation. These tools are part of the overall processing workflow, to be used as needed There is a learning curve for their application as they provide full control. Photo AI is a mild combination that is best used at the beginning of the postprocessing. Make sure to view at 100% to pick up possible artifacts. I always switch the sharpening function off. Gigapixels is great to prepare for extreme cropping but I prefer Adobe Enhance. 
Tools like these are the same as everything thing else in photography. The user determines the outcome, don’t trust them to get to an optimal result automatically. 

 

 

this was just an image taken last night on radon , I can show you so many example where topaz just makes up stuff that I have done in the last year.

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[jaapv]

Yes - you should have switched of sharpening and other enhancements and reduced noise reduction to a lower level, and it would have been fine.  

[IzelPhotography]

In LR I ramp up masking to around 70% so all flat areas such as sky, deep shadows etc are excluded from sharpening and then, if necessary, apply a small boost on the sharpening tool which should now only improve strong in-focus lines and edges. Also making sure the details slider isn't adding any noise.

If it's a narrow focus image, turning off sharpening altogether and then in layers select person, object etc and then apply sharpening to that area only. As you say, this way you should be able to reduce the amount of NR which in turn improves images sharpness as well.