M11 - Low Light Performance + Shutter Sound

[Lee S]

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Musing an upgrade from the original M10 to M11, can anyone kindly provide guidance on the following.

1. Is the shutter sound like the M10-P or shall I expect an M11-P with the quiet mechanical shutter ‘upgrade’ in?
2. I find low light performance lacking in the M10 compared to my Sony A73. Has anyone found an increase in pixel level (100%) noise performance at 60MP output? Looking at the DXO mark noise scores per pixel noise (screen) performance is worse than the M10, it only pulls ahead when downsampled to a 8.6MP 8” x 12” print size. I anticipate downsampled to 24MP (or in camera 18MP RAW) the equivalent image will still have worse noise than the M10. Is this consistent with how people find it’s low light performance? 

Graphs below for comparison, first one is when downsampled to 8” x 12” print. The second one is when viewed 100% on screen. 

Thanks L

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Edited January 24 by Lee S

[LocalHero1953]

I can't answer for the M10 or M11 (I have held them in my hands but not owned either), but in your shoes I would think clearly about how I actually view images. Of course one can view any image at 100%, but is that really relevant? I would appraise them at the image size I, or my audience, normally view them. Downsizing to the same image size gives me the more realistic result*. If I was buying, then this DXOmark data wouldn't affect my choice.

 

*Unless you want to print at a much larger size with the M11 than you currently do with the M10 or Sony A7iii.

[Lee S]

22 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I can't answer for the M10 or M11 (I have held them in my hands but not owned either), but in your shoes I would think clearly about how I actually view images. Of course one can view any image at 100%, but is that really relevant? I would appraise them at the image size I, or my audience, normally view them. Downsizing to the same image size gives me the more realistic result*. If I was buying, then this DXOmark data wouldn't affect my choice.

 

*Unless you want to print at a much larger size with the M11 than you currently do with the M10 or Sony A7iii.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I do enjoy pixel peeping and marvelling at what modern cameras and lenses can do!

That said you make a very good point about appraising the output as you view them.

Most are either printed 8” x 12” or displayed on my 65” Samsung Frame TV which is 4k resolution, both around 8MP. Not sure the small noise benefit down sampling to this size is worth upgrading to the M11 in isolation. I do like the other features though touch screen, USB charging (the M10 charger takes up 50% of my camera bag) better screen and visoflex…. hmm. 
 

 

[wlaidlaw]

When I am considering a new camera, pixel count usually comes quite low in my priorities. I have a 24 x 36 inch print on the wall of my French house. The original was taken with the APS-C sized 10MP sensor of my M8 and there is no noticeable pixellation. Now some of this is down to the Epson RIP engine that was used on the wide format Epson printer that was used to make the print but it does illustrate that for most purposes 10-15MP is enough. The only factors that would encourage me to upgrade from my current M10-R would be a substantial improvement in low light performance. The M11 is a bit better in low light than the M10-R but not enough to make me want to spend around £3,000 for the upgrade. My next purchase will most likely be the Q3, as there, a higher pixel count enables more creative cropping to arrive at longer lens EFOV images. I don't currently own any of the Q cameras and the nearest equivalent I have is the CL with the 18mm pancake lens. 

Wilson

[Renatus]

M11 noise is higher than my M10R was, but only at high ISO or underexposure. DxO Pro RAW2 fixes it better than Capture One. Shutter noise is higher too, but not by much and it is not noticeable to a subject. Neither outweigh the M11 advantages imho. 

[Bokeh1]

Unfortunately, I do not have an M10 to compare, but these videos here should give you some idea: 

If you deem what you can see (be it from a compressed YouTube video) equivalent to your M10 then the M11 would do a great job, given its much larger sensor size. 

I have only a Sony A7 IV to compare directly and a Leica Q2 and I would say the M11 is on par with the Sony (with the latter's sensor being smaller) and 1-2 stops better than the Q2.

I would say it comes down to if you need the upgrades on the M11 or as stated above the larger cropping/printing ability. I really like using the M11, having upgraded from the M9 which is also still a great camera for many situations.

Edited January 24 by Bokeh1

[Lee S]

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1 hour ago, Bokeh1 said:

Unfortunately, I do not have an M10 to compare, but these videos here should give you some idea: 

If you deem what you can see (be it from a compressed YouTube video) equivalent to your M10 then the M11 would do a great job, given its much larger sensor size. 

I have only a Sony A7 IV to compare directly and a Leica Q2 and I would say the M11 is on par with the Sony (with the latter's sensor being smaller) and 1-2 stops better than the Q2.

I would say it comes down to if you need the upgrades on the M11 or as stated above the larger cropping/printing ability. I really like using the M11, having upgraded from the M9 which is also still a great camera for many situations.

Thanks will check out the videos when I finish work!

[Photoworks]

It is good to keep in mind how to shoot the M10 and how to shoot the M11.

In my experience the M10 has contrary files with a clipping warning in highlights, to avoid clipping the M10 should be exposed to preserve lighter parts of the image, often 2 stops.

The M11 sensor is different, you need to expose the image correctly and you have clean images at high iso. If you need to push the exposure few more stops in post because of underexposure, noise start to come up in the images.

Also it you may have noticed that the in camera photos have less noise that the DNG you produce in post.
I tell my students to beware of post production. I have see them often bring the shadow recovery to 100% and Highlights to 100% and then just the rest. The image at this point is already so unrealistic and muddy that you loose all contrast and color, and you know what follows...

The camera will do the capture, but what the camera is set up to and what lenses you are using will influence your output.

Here are 2 images in the subway at the same time, the one with black lens in the image is from M11 and the other is from M10

in addition a photo in the Resturant with M11 at ISO 2000. you can see how much color is retained on M11 in compare to M10 at ISO 1600

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in addition a photo in the Resturant with M11 at ISO 2000. you can see how much color is retained on M11 in compare to M10 at ISO 1600

 

this image is at ISO12500 on M11

 

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[jakontil]

12 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

It is good to keep in mind how to shoot the M10 and how to shoot the M11.

In my experience the M10 has contrary files with a clipping warning in highlights, to avoid clipping the M10 should be exposed to preserve lighter parts of the image, often 2 stops.

The M11 sensor is different, you need to expose the image correctly and you have clean images at high iso. If you need to push the exposure few more stops in post because of underexposure, noise start to come up in the images.

Also it you may have noticed that the in camera photos have less noise that the DNG you produce in post.
I tell my students to beware of post production. I have see them often bring the shadow recovery to 100% and Highlights to 100% and then just the rest. The image at this point is already so unrealistic and muddy that you loose all contrast and color, and you know what follows...

The camera will do the capture, but what the camera is set up to and what lenses you are using will influence your output.

Here are 2 images in the subway at the same time, the one with black lens in the image is from M11 and the other is from M10

in addition a photo in the Resturant with M11 at ISO 2000. you can see how much color is retained on M11 in compare to M10 at ISO 1600

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

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in addition a photo in the Resturant with M11 at ISO 2000. you can see how much color is retained on M11 in compare to M10 at ISO 1600

 

this image is at ISO12500 on M11

 

i thought at first i saw dustin hoffman 

anyway, i still have both the m10 r and m11.. in terms of noise related, it's splitting hair between the two.. however the point where M11 need to expose correctly is very true since pushing the shadow might generate noise more easily.. that less pronounced on m10 r too ..anyway my style of shooting, didnt fancy a clean picture, i'd add some grains to mine

what concerns me more is when shooting at high iso, say 6400, since it is probably my limit most of the times when shooting low lights, i notice the m10r color more pronounced to banding and shifting compared to m11, very minor, but sometimes i just happen to see the slight variation of color in m10r 

[M11 for me]

You have to understand some physical facts: Never look at a single pixel (SCREEN in DXO). That is not relevant at all. Smaller pixel always have more noise. When you take all together and you look at the 2 pictures at the SAME SIZE (NOT 100%) then it's fully different. You look then at all pixels together. There is no doubt that the M11 performs above the M10 (PRINT in DXO). 

[Kwesi]

7 hours ago, Lee S said:

Is the shutter sound like the M10-P or shall I expect an M11-P with the quiet mechanical shutter ‘upgrade’ in?

I think the mechanical shutter is going the way of the Dodo bird. As soon as Leica can get a processor in there that can give you full sensor readout and run cool and be gentle on battery per

That being said, the shutter sound will improve, hopefully with the M11-P as they did moving from the M10 to M10-P.

Should you upgrade now? Tough question - the M11-P should arrive sometime in June (18 months after M-11).

If you are starving for better image quality go for it and decide wether an upgrade is necessary when the 11-P arrives. Otherwise keep shooting the M10.

Regarding noise comparisons, I agree with both @jakontiland @Photoworks above.

[S Maclean]

I would still recommend to expose to the highlight on the M11.  

[Lee S]

1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

I think the mechanical shutter is going the way of the Dodo bird. As soon as Leica can get a processor in there that can give you full sensor readout and run cool and be gentle on battery per

That being said, the shutter sound will improve, hopefully with the M11-P as they did moving from the M10 to M10-P.

Should you upgrade now? Tough question - the M11-P should arrive sometime in June (18 months after M-11).

If you are starving for better image quality go for it and decide wether an upgrade is necessary when the 11-P arrives. Otherwise keep shooting the M10.

Regarding noise comparisons, I agree with both @jakontiland @Photoworks above.

I’m sure they could improve it now but held it back for the M11-P. Shame I prefer the standard M styling and red dot 🔴 compared to the P variants.

The Sony A1 has a very good electronic shutter, expect M12 will have an improved sensor read out speed to eliminate rolling shutter.  

[Lee S]

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

It is good to keep in mind how to shoot the M10 and how to shoot the M11.

In my experience the M10 has contrary files with a clipping warning in highlights, to avoid clipping the M10 should be exposed to preserve lighter parts of the image, often 2 stops.

The M11 sensor is different, you need to expose the image correctly and you have clean images at high iso. If you need to push the exposure few more stops in post because of underexposure, noise start to come up in the images.

Also it you may have noticed that the in camera photos have less noise that the DNG you produce in post.
I tell my students to beware of post production. I have see them often bring the shadow recovery to 100% and Highlights to 100% and then just the rest. The image at this point is already so unrealistic and muddy that you loose all contrast and color, and you know what follows...

The camera will do the capture, but what the camera is set up to and what lenses you are using will influence your output.

Here are 2 images in the subway at the same time, the one with black lens in the image is from M11 and the other is from M10

in addition a photo in the Resturant with M11 at ISO 2000. you can see how much color is retained on M11 in compare to M10 at ISO 1600

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

in addition a photo in the Resturant with M11 at ISO 2000. you can see how much color is retained on M11 in compare to M10 at ISO 1600

 

this image is at ISO12500 on M11

 

Those images looks super clean at high ISO especially the M11. Any post processing?

Are you suggesting shutting the M10 with two stops under exposure? I normally go for around 0.7 to avoid highlight clipping.

[Kwesi]

7 minutes ago, Lee S said:

I’m sure they could improve it now but held it back for the M11-P. Shame I prefer the standard M styling and red dot 🔴 compared to the P variants.

The Sony A1 has a very good electronic shutter, expect M12 will have an improved sensor read out speed to eliminate rolling shutter.  

I hope they can with the M12 but I am a little doubtful.

My take is that we've just begun the second phase of the Digital M journey. The first phase which started in earnest with the M9( M8 was in some ways a proof of concept)  was to create a digital M7. That quest ended successfully with the M10 platform. The second phase which is to join the best of the mirrorless cameras in terms of technology, usability, image quality and features while remaining an M has just begun with the M11. Its not going to be easy given that the competition does not have the size constraints that the M has to grapple with.

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[Photoworks]

22 minutes ago, Lee S said:

Those images looks super clean at high ISO especially the M11. Any post processing?

 

just standard color correction and exposure, I never go into sharpening and noise reduction, Capture one does it base on camera setting.
Just keep in mind I like black to be dark, so no lifting the black most of the time. that is where you find most of the noise.

25 minutes ago, Lee S said:

Are you suggesting shutting the M10 with two stops under exposure? I normally go for around 0.7 to avoid highlight clipping.

I think it is best never use ISO 100 on the M10, start with ISO 200 and compensation is used on individual bases.
On M11 I have set camera to highlight metering and don't change it much, it is one of the new innovations I like.

The M10 is still a good camera, sometime it is better to invest in glass, I often shoot in low light at 1.4 or less

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[MyLeicaWorld]

In day time shootings with superelmar 21 there were no problem but when I set the auto iso to max 10000 the noise started to appear even in 5-6 pm winter shootings .. my m10 was better at iso 10000.. below you can find some samples taken with m11 and superelmar ..I find the noise very unsatisfying in these photos .. but thanks to pure raw 2 the noise can be eliminated easily.. but none of the photos above have the pure raw 2 edits.. the first 3 photos are shot at 10000 iso the last one is at iso 500 ..

 

 

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Edited January 25 by MyLeicaWorld

[jaapv]

I wonder. Is the original question inspired by a desire for better image quality or by being in the upgrade treadmill? If the former, I doubt that you will be able to take a single “better” photograph, and certainly not one worth thousands of dollars. You would be better off spending the money on lenses. 

[Lee S]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I wonder. Is the original question inspired by a desire for better image quality or by being in the upgrade treadmill? If the former, I doubt that you will be able to take a single “better” photograph, and certainly not one worth thousands of dollars. You would be better off spending the money on lenses. 

I’m aware the M11 certainly won’t help me take better photos and nor will a new lens.

I also own a Sony A73 and enjoy its output for low light situations and looking for an M that could match its low light performance, I wondered if the M11 could match it.

 

[Photoworks]

28 minutes ago, Lee S said:

I’m aware the M11 certainly won’t help me take better photos and nor will a new lens.

I also own a Sony A73 and enjoy its output for low light situations and looking for an M that could match its low light performance, I wondered if the M11 could match it.

 

If you get a camera that you actually like to take everywhere will improve your photography. The M camera does it for me.
You get more exercise and more practice.

all the Sony stay in the case at home. I only picked them up if I need to.