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My M8 frameline rumors were wrong.

Guest imported_jtorral

By Guest imported_jtorral
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marknorton

marknorton

Posted
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All this speculation, all this rumour, my head is spinning. I don't know how much credibility to attach to the "hands-on" report.

 

I've given up any hope of a variable finder magnification and electronic frame lines and I've said elsewhere it's plausible that they've gone for 28/90, 24/35 and 50/75 frames. If they then adjust the magnification so that the "widest" frame (24mm, 32mm equivalent angle of view) occupies the same place in the viewfinder as the current 28mm frame - the limit of what you can see - that would suggest a finder magnification of 0.82.

 

But who knows? Perhaps we should have a forum sweepstake with a prize to the person who guesses the finder magnification most accurately....

 

So my money is on:

 

- 28/90, 24/35 and 50/75 frames

- 0.82 Magnification

- Existing aux finder remarked for 15/18/21mm

- Finder magnifier recommended for 75 and 90mm

 

BTW, I also realised that the M8 hot shoe is going to be in the same place relative to the lens mount on an M7. The aux finder has an offset to align it with the lens axis, so they will not want to re-engineer that.

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lct

lct

Posted
Posted
...it's plausible that they've gone for 28/90, 24/35 and 50/75 frames. If they then adjust the magnification so that the "widest" frame (24mm, 32mm equivalent angle of view) occupies the same place in the viewfinder as the current 28mm frame - the limit of what you can see - that would suggest a finder magnification of 0.82....

Or at least a .78x mag according to my previous calculation.

There's perhaps a typo in Jorge's figure (.68x).

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sreidvt

sreidvt

Posted
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LCT--Glad you got my point!

 

In regard to focusing a 75/1.4 wide open on the R-D1, I commented in the German language section of this forum that it wasn't technically advisable, and promptly got a very nice response saying that despite theory, it worked quite well (http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digitalforum/128-leica-objektive-epson.html#post1482).

 

On the other hand, Sean Reid mentioned in his review of high-speed 50's on the R-D1 that he seemed to have misfocused one of the lenses. It could have been due to an inaccurate focus cam on the lens, or it could have been due to tired eyes with a short rangefinder base (clearly my speculations).

 

--HC

 

In careful testing, I`ve found that the R-D1 cannot consistently and reliably focus either the 50-1.0 Noct. or the 75-1.4. Sometimes, but not reliably.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean (from Quebec today)

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Bob Ross

Bob Ross

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Or at least a .78x mag according to my previous calculation.

There's perhaps a typo in Jorge's figure (.68x).

LCT,

I backed into the formula that you gave to find out what the COC would be for a 90 @ f/2 and got 0.0283mm. Another approach I'll try is to find the f/stop at which focusing begins to be unreliable using the 0.68 mag and the 0.0226 COC....or in plain words, the f/stop at which DOF begins to cover up our sloppy focusing techniques;)

 

Mark,

You have my wishful vote for the 0.82 mag (or LCT's 0.78 mag). Jorge's secret agent could have also give some other trivial details to add credibility, like if the screw in cable release on shutter remains as does the tripod mount offset (??) or, as you mentioned, the offset flash shoe.. My take on the top shutter speed of 1/4000 is it might have to do with increased mechanical longivity.

Bob

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rvaubel

rvaubel

Posted
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In careful testing, I`ve found that the R-D1 cannot consistently and reliably focus either the 50-1.0 Noct. or the 75-1.4. Sometimes, but not reliable

Sean (from Quebec today)

 

Sean

That's one of the compromises that the shorter baseline of the RD1 forced on the photographer. Not that big of a deal unless one owns a Noctilux.

 

With the M8's longer baseline, the Noct. will focus as designed. You have to get something for your money.

 

Rex

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rvaubel

rvaubel

Posted
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Maybe the rangefinder base length is increased in the M8.

The viewfinder window can be positioned more to the right, because the rewind crank or the knob have disappeared!

 

No it can't. Thats because the new M8 rangefinder is designed to be compatable with the old googled lenses.

 

Rex

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Bob Ross

Bob Ross

Posted
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LCT,

I backed into the formula that you gave to find out what the COC would be for a 90 @ f/2 and got 0.0283mm. Another approach I'll try is to find the f/stop at which focusing begins to be unreliable using the 0.68 mag and the 0.0226 COC....or in plain words, the f/stop at which DOF begins to cover up our sloppy focusing techniques;)

 

Bob

Some numbers for the 0.62X finder using the 0.023 COC to get the threshold f/stop.

50mm-f/0.7; 75mm-f/1.7; 90mm-f/2.5; 135mm-f/5.5. Corrections welcome.

More trivia: the 0.023mm COC will cover 3.38 photo sites (6.8µm):cool:

Bob

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billh

billh

Posted
Posted
LCT--

Remember, there are people today who happily use the 75/1.4 on the Epson R-D1.

 

Even considering the need to adjust the circle of confusion for the crop factor, the chart on p 35 of LFI 8/2004 (November) implies that there should be just enough accuracy for those lenses.

 

 

--HC

 

I can't focus either of my 75s on the RD-1. I have not used that camera in many months. Maybe they will offer another viewfinder later.

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leicapfile

leicapfile

Posted
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I seem to recall (but can't find) where someone said they thought that they had seen a M8 prototype in Solms late last year. They commented that it had 'much larger' RF windows than film Ms.

 

Is it possible, that given the obvious changes to the camera innards that the smaller sensor and new shutter will have, that this enables the whole of the RF mechanism to be larger, resuling in a higher magnification than has been bandied about recently, and wider (24) framelines to be used at the same time?

 

After all, while it could be the same general schematic RF that has been around for 50+ years, couldn't it be scaled up?

 

Jerry

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lct

lct

Posted
Posted
...Is it possible, that given the obvious changes to the camera innards that the smaller sensor and new shutter will have, that this enables the whole of the RF mechanism to be larger, resuling in a higher magnification than has been bandied about recently, and wider (24) framelines to be used at the same time?...

Yes it is plausible that the VF will have 24mm frame lines, as Mark suggested above, but they won't be 'wider' actually because they won't show more than a 24x1.33= 32mm field of view.

The challenge would be to insert 21mm frame lines (28mm FoV) in the viewfinder but i don't see how it would be possible without skipping the 90mm frame lines (120mm FoV) on the M8.

Hope i'm wrong of course. :rolleyes:

Anyway i'm not interested in wide VFs personally so it's not to morrow that i'll buy the M8 i'm afraid, unless Leica provide different magnifications.

loupe_anim.gif

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ho_co

ho_co

Posted
Posted
I can't focus either of my 75s on the RD-1. I have not used that camera in many months. Maybe they will offer another viewfinder later.

Bill--

As I'm sure you know, the short-base rangefinder means they can use some of the space immediately under the top cover for other things, like analog dials. But the longest lens reliably focusable on the R-D1 is apparently 50mm. (And, according to Sean above, no faster than 50mm f/2.)

 

In my earlier post, I commented only on the fact that when I mentioned that fact on the German forum, one response was 'nonetheless, it works for me.'

 

--HC

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lct

lct

Posted
Posted
...the longest lens reliably focusable on the R-D1 is apparently 50mm. (And, according to Sean above, no faster than 50mm f/2.)...

Not quite sure if Sean said this, Howard, as 50mm lenses can be focussed at f/1.4 with a good success rate on the R-D1.

 

EPSN1760-aftercropweb.jpg

(Epson R-D1, Summilux 50 asph, f/1.4, 400 iso, 100% crop)

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marknorton

marknorton

Posted
Posted
I seem to recall (but can't find) where someone said they thought that they had seen a M8 prototype in Solms late last year. They commented that it had 'much larger' RF windows than film Ms.

 

Yes, that was me, what appeared to be an M8 prototype mounted on a tripod alongside a DMR, apparently being taken out for comparative shooting.

 

In my mind's eye, the windows did appear larger but after all this talk, who knows what I saw?

 

I had hoped that Leica would have done a comprehensive makeover of the viewfinder/rangefinder using modern design and materials to make it easier to use. I cannot believe that brilliant optical engineers like Peter Karbe have not had some improvements in mind or have they all so cautious and frightened of upsetting the traditionalists that they've gone with the safe solution of tweaking the M7 finder instead?

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