PDAF likely to replace DFD-CDAF on SL3

[BernardC]

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3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The video question on my mind is, will SL3 and/or SL3-S be able to do 4K 50p/60p with no crop.

There will always be a small crop, because video and still aspect ratios are different.

The limitations for 60p have to do with storage, cooling, power, and processing speed. I doubt that the new processor is maxed-out already, so we will probably see 4K 60p in more expensive cameras. Maybe we'll even get 6K 60p.

[sillbeers15]

4 minutes ago, BernardC said:

There's nothing stopping any third party from making an AF M adapter for CDAF, other than the fact that the L-Mount API is harder to hack than Sony's (older) protocol.

Those cheap adapters can work with all Sony mirrorless, even the ones that don't have PD sensors. There may be some incompatibilities, as there always are with unlicensed third-party products, but they shouldn't have anything to do with CDAF.

No third party lenses can work with CDAF’s AFC due to the absent of contrast data in the camera for DFD to process. Therefore all third party lenses attached via adaptors can only work with AFS. It is shown first time they work on S5ll as PDAF do not require contrast data for AFC to work.

[Geoff C. Bassett]

34 minutes ago, BernardC said:

There will always be a small crop, because video and still aspect ratios are different.

The limitations for 60p have to do with storage, cooling, power, and processing speed. I doubt that the new processor is maxed-out already, so we will probably see 4K 60p in more expensive cameras. Maybe we'll even get 6K 60p.

This is 100% incorrect. By crop he means a Super35, and even what you state is wrong because the S1, S1H, & S5 II have open gate that does not crop the sensor.

The sensor itself is the limiting factor preventing the full sensor readout at 60p, NOT the processor.

[BernardC]

36 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

No third party lenses can work with CDAF’s AFC due to the absent of contrast data in the camera for DFD to process. Therefore all third party lenses attached via adaptors can only work with AFS. It is shown first time they work on S5ll as PDAF do not require contrast data for AFC to work.

The question was about AF adapters for M mount lenses. Similar adapters are available for Sony and Nikon cameras. These adapters have several well-known limitations.

[BernardC]

7 minutes ago, Geoff C. Bassett said:

This is 100% incorrect. By crop he means a Super35, and even what you state is wrong because the S1, S1H, & S5 II have open gate that does not crop the sensor.

The specs say that the S5II will do 6000 x 4000 pixels in photo mode, and up-to 5952 x 3968 in video mode. That's a small crop, as far as I am concerned.

 

[matted]

54 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The specs say that the S5II will do 6000 x 4000 pixels in photo mode, and up-to 5952 x 3968 in video mode. That's a small crop, as far as I am concerned.

 

True, however the point still stands that I am pretty sure Chaemono was wondering if the SL3 will be able to do 4k50/60p without having to resort to an S35/APS-C crop, as the S5-II does. From DPreview Initial review:

 

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[sillbeers15]

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1 hour ago, BernardC said:

The question was about AF adapters for M mount lenses. Similar adapters are available for Sony and Nikon cameras. These adapters have several well-known limitations.

Yeap. Techart gave a timeline to deliver a L-Mount af adapter earlier for M lenses but the development stopped quietly. I understand the E-Mount does have some focusing inaccuracy as the adapter was designed as a generic adapter for all M Mount lenses below a certain weight. 
Now Leica themselves can develop a lens specific af adapter with much precise af. I would love to see that taking place …especially on my Noctilux.

[Chaemono]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb matted:

True, however the point still stands that I am pretty sure Chaemono was wondering if the SL3 will be able to do 4k50/60p without having to resort to an S35/APS-C crop, as the S5-II does. From DPreview Initial review:

 

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I’m willing to bet that the S1H II, SL3 and SL3-S will use the “full” sensor for 4K 50p/60p without resorting to APS-C crop. Panasonic must have left some upside for the other cameras and Leica must be able to justify the premium price to videographers.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

14 hours ago, Malabito said:

After looking at the results of the new s5, leica has to be crazy not to bring this to the newer sl cameras. 

Autofocus is just horrible on the sl, it's a joke for such expensive cameras, and it always makes me want to change systems after finishing an event.......

Now if they brought phase detect to the new sl, it would really make it my perfect camera. Also probably this means the new sl2s will come with a much higher price tag.....

Why do you need AFC for events? The SL2 AFS is just as fast and efficient as any other AFS system. EV -6 as well. It just requires knowing how the system is a bit different and adjusting to suit.

I’ve shot hundreds of events on the SL2 and SL (601) before it. AF was never an issue. Reliable flash was though for a long time. Not Af though. My hit rate was well above 90%.

Gordon

[Yuhau]

9 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Yeap. Techart gave a timeline to deliver a L-Mount af adapter earlier for M lenses but the development stopped quietly. I understand the E-Mount does have some focusing inaccuracy as the adapter was designed as a generic adapter for all M Mount lenses below a certain weight. 
Now Leica themselves can develop a lens specific af adapter with much precise af. I would love to see that taking place …especially on my Noctilux.

That will be ideal if Panasonic can make commission one. Failing that,  A Techart version is fine by me ( with few requirements and for fun ) even with the limitations. In fact, I remembered getting a Sony a7r2   just to try out the Techart adaptor to help with my failing eyesight on better (A/F) focusing with my M lens on a high res sensor.  I do recognize the limitations of wide angle M lenes in Sony sensor.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Yuhau
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[sillbeers15]

2 hours ago, Yuhau said:

That will be ideal if Panasonic can make commission one. Failing that,  A Techart version is fine by me ( with few requirements and for fun ) even with the limitations. In fact, I remembered getting a Sony a7r2   just to try out the Techart adaptor to help with my failing eyesight on better (A/F) focusing with my M lens on a high res sensor.  I do recognize the limitations of wide angle M lenes in Sony sensor.

I guess it is not difficult to reverse engineer from a Sigma MC 21 adapter to drive it’s linear motor to focus an M lens now that it is now proven that MC 21 works with Canon DSLR lenses on S5ll.

[BernardC]

10 hours ago, Yuhau said:

That will be ideal if Panasonic can make commission one. Failing that,  A Techart version is fine by me ( with few requirements and for fun ) even with the limitations.

Panasonic won't associate themselves with such an adapter. From their point of view it's a third-party adapter for third-party lenses, most of which don't work well with their  sensor!

Leica won't either. The adapter doesn't meet their quality standards (parallelism), and it doesn't work with any lens that uses internal focus.

It's really up-to TechArt, or similar companies, to figure it out on their own.

[LBJ2]

10 hours ago, Yuhau said:

That will be ideal if Panasonic can make commission one. Failing that,  A Techart version is fine by me ( with few requirements and for fun ) even with the limitations. In fact, I remembered getting a Sony a7r2   just to try out the Techart adaptor to help with my failing eyesight on better (A/F) focusing with my M lens on a high res sensor.  I do recognize the limitations of wide angle M lenes in Sony sensor.

I used the original and quirky Techart infrequently with Sony cameras and a few Leica lenses. It's one of the main reasons I decided to spend big on a real rangefinder adapter the M10 ha ha. Never want to go back to using that adapter again...the newest version II is being described as a better design. But from what I read still many of the same quirks. But honestly can be a fun "tinker" for those of us inclined to tinker. 

For some, the Techart can be an AF starter so-to-speak for adapting Leica M lenses to a mirrorless with EVF getting you "almost there" and then use MF dial on the same adapter to dial-in the final few steps to nail focus--particularly in less than ideal lighting or for subjects at a distance. The Techart adapter in good light and close proximity to the target can be a much better hit rate. But for a me a very mixed bag of frustration and delight. I personally would recommend the external EVF, the Visoflex on a Leica M camera over the Techart any day of the week, but then again failing eyesight comes in many different forms and symptoms so maybe the Techart can be a last resort for some.

Since using the Techart a few years back, I always wondered what Leica/Panansonic engineers might be able to do with such a technology...

Edited January 6, 2023 by LBJ2

[LD_50]

Leica could have made an M autofocus adapter for the SL from day one if they chose to. 

As mentioned above, moving the entire lens back and forth is not the way to achieve focus with lenses that have floating elements. These elements move internally during focusing and wouldn’t do so with the type of adapter being suggested. 

To make a property functioning (proper in terms of image quality) one would need to physically turn the focus ring on an M lens. 

Some people may be willing to accept the trade offs in image quality of a “move the lens mount back and forth” adapter but I don’t expect Leica would. 

[beewee]

L-mount adapters (including teleconverters) are also currently not part of the L-mount alliance standards. So there’s no guaranteed compatibility on any adapters between L-mount alliance members regardless of whether it comes from Leica, Sigma, or Panasonic. The interoperability standards only cover the physical lens mount and communication protocols between body and lens for non-adapted, native L-mount lenses.

[Malabito]

21 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Why do you need AFC for events? The SL2 AFS is just as fast and efficient as any other AFS system. EV -6 as well. It just requires knowing how the system is a bit different and adjusting to suit.

I’ve shot hundreds of events on the SL2 and SL (601) before it. AF was never an issue. Reliable flash was though for a long time. Not Af though. My hit rate was well above 90%.

Gordon

Why do i need afc? Perhaps we shoot different kinds of events... but in the ones i am shooting people move and sometimes they even move fast

The sl2s autofocus implementation is a disaster.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Malabito

[helged]

4 hours ago, Malabito said:

The sl2s autofocus implementation is a disaster.

I tend to agree, for quickly or erratically moving subjects, SL2/SL2 (as well as Lumix S1, S1R, S5) are far from good. For instance, I can just forget to take a series of photos of our Golden Retriever running towards me. With Canon R5 almost all images, even with 10+ frames per second, have the closest eye in focus. Unbelievable. For static subjects, single af is good. No problem.

Next incarnation of SLx doesn't have to be at the level of eg Canon R5 regarding continuous af, but large imorovements are expected. And will be the case, I strongly believe. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by helged

[sillbeers15]

1 hour ago, helged said:

I tend to agree, for quickly or erratically moving subjects, SL2/SL2 (as well as Lumix S1, S1R, S5) are far from good. For instance, I can just forget to take a series of photos of our Golden Retriever running towards me. With Canon R5 almost all images, even with 10+ frames per second, have the closest eye in focus. Unbelievable. For static subjects, single af is good. No problem.

Next incarnation of SLx doesn't have to be at the level of eg Canon R5 regarding continuous af, but large imorovements are expected. And will be the case, I strongly believe. 

What is the reason of AFC failure? Unable to lock on AF tracking? Or AF just goes off to background halfway? AF mode chosen? Tracking? Zone focus? I never have problems locking autofocus on BIF unless against strong backlight and I have not lost tracking subject entirety but only momentarily on SL2. In general, AFC success rate isn’t that bad either. Just my experience.

[helged]

5 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

What is the reason of AFC failure? Unable to lock on AF tracking? Or AF just goes off to background halfway? AF mode chosen? Tracking? Zone focus? I never have problems locking autofocus on BIF unless against strong backlight and I have not lost tracking subject entirety but only momentarily on SL2. In general, AFC success rate isn’t that bad either. Just my experience.

For BIF, running/jumping animals, etc: Eye tracking: No succes. Tracking against highlights: No succes. Tracking between straws, brushes, trees: No succes. Tracking against busy backgrounds: No succes. Yes, it could be me, and "No" doesn't mean 100 percent, but perhaps 80-90 percent, failure rates.

I have tested the various AF combinations that I am aware of, including reducing the sensor estate to APS-C (and going back to FF in post). I would think that I have >10.000 C-AF test-shots with SL2, SL2-S, S1R, S5.

For the above situations, the succes rate with Canon R5 could be 95+ percent (with eye tracking, 10-20 fps, very impressive). Previously, I have experience with eg Nikon D5 and D500. High succes rate for the Nikons too, although not at the level of R5.

I understand that the SL-system isn't made for these types of shooting situations. It would nevertheless be useful to have a more responsive, consistent & reliable C-AF system in L-mount. S5II seems to be there, and SLx will (likely) follow. Great! 

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[Malabito]

7 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

What is the reason of AFC failure? Unable to lock on AF tracking? Or AF just goes off to background halfway? AF mode chosen? Tracking? Zone focus? I never have problems locking autofocus on BIF unless against strong backlight and I have not lost tracking subject entirety but only momentarily on SL2. In general, AFC success rate isn’t that bad either. Just my experience.

To me it seems like the autofocus implementation of the sl was done by a team who had no background in photography and only took advice from users who only flowers and perhaps some street.

This is the list of issues I have, (besides it been unreliable):
-    Focus point in tracking is not sticky enough, it just jumps around like crazy no matter even if the subject is static
-    Face detect when you have multiple faces in the frame is once mre unreliable, it jumps from face to face with no apparent reason:
o    You have no way to lock a face
o    You have no way to disengage face detect in a fast and efficient way when using it, lets say you are in an event shooting and want to change fast from a subject to an object, yes you can press the joystick, that somehow does it now, but when you release the focus button, it goes back to face detect, so you need to be constantly pressing the joystick
o    You have no  fast way to engage face detect, lets say you shoot in AFC with tracking, but in some situations, you want do a portrait of a subject, you would like to engage face detect, take the pict and disengaged it
-    You have no way to use multiple focus modes at the same time, like assign AFC with tracking to the shutter button and AFS to another, so depending on the shooting condition you use one or the other without having to mingle with settings.

- You cant really shoot with backfocus button, if you use backfocus button, whenever you release the focus is most of the time out of focus, so you cant really trust it to be used in such way.

All of the issues above are of no concern with Sony or Canon, but with Leica is basically impossible to do. Yes you can workaround it, that’s how I handle it, but really makes you think that whoever design the software never really shot anything in a wedding or event.  

Edited January 7, 2023 by Malabito