Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Huss]

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24 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

I

I would not interpret "all new parts" to mean different design. Possibly from different sub-contractors or suppliers, or even different manufacturing processes. On the other hand, I'm quite sure there are no used parts in them.

The BS was that the initial claim was it is now all brought in house as they could no longer rely on sourcing parts.  Then I get the email from Leica saying it is a supplier issue.  Which goes against their claim when this camera was released as to its provenance.   Also, the MP and MA in the past have randomly suffered from this issue - as reported in other threads - so it really seems getting a non scratching M is the luck of the draw.

This is for cameras which cost about $5500.  You may pull the short straw and get one that scratches, and then deal with the nightmare situation of trying to get it fixed. Or you may get lucky and have one that is perfect.

I have never dealt with this before on any of my other film cameras - some which cost a few dollars, to some which are thousands of dollars.  But for Leica, this is common place.

And remember, they sent it back to me saying it was fixed!  Which they now admit is not the case.  10 weeks in on a brand new camera.

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[Huss]

3 hours ago, archive_all said:

The all new parts may have been something lost in translation and then stated to a few people, it's probably all new parts from the original M6..

That is the only explanation that makes any sort of sense, BUT.. they then insisted that it would not affect the production of the current MP and MA, so it sounds like they were being deliberately obtuse.  To build excitement for this 'all new' camera.

[Huss]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

And the chances of doing so are what?*

 

 

 

 

 

* A. Guesswork

I am not sure I understand what you are saying.  Leica told me in an email that they identified the cause of scratching as a bad batch of pressure plates.  If your camera does not scratch, then you do not have a pressure plate from that bad batch.  It does not seem like they have a way of identifying the batches, seeing they replaced my bad pressure plate with another defective one.

My MP does not scratch.  My M-A does not scratch.  My two M7s do not scratch.  My new M6 does - twice now.

[Huss]

7 hours ago, Matlock said:

Leica have stated that the cause was a defective batch of pressure plates so you will only have problems if your camera has one of those plates. Defective batches of various parts go back many years (not just with Leica). If you can't see scratches on your film you have no problems, either with your camera or your eyes.

Exactly.  If your camera is fine, you are good to go.  Nothing to worry about.  If it scratches - it has a defective pressure plate.

[Ed Lex]

This is all such a shame. Huss, and all others that are experiencing this problem, I feel for you. I'm a perfectionist to a fault, and on high-priced items like Leicas, which are supposed to be the pinnacle of engineering and precision, this is a huge letdown. Actually, their lack of a prompt and appropriate response is really the larger flaw in my mind. They could have responded immediately with "we are so sorry and will next day ship a brand new replacement to you." That would have been the proper thing to do. All this has me very reluctant to buy anything new from Leica; I'll stick with my 1960s M2s and used gear for which reputable sellers can vouch. I truly hope all those with problem cameras get proper resolution as quickly as possible. I tip my hat to you for your stamina and persistence, especially Huss. Thanks for sharing the saga.

[Steve Ricoh]

1 hour ago, TomB_tx said:

I

I would not interpret "all new parts" to mean different design. Possibly from different sub-contractors or suppliers, or even different manufacturing processes. On the other hand, I'm quite sure there are no used parts in them.

“All new parts” could mean the parts are freshly manufactured, but to the 1980s drawings for the original M6. Effectively “new” could be a play on words; not inaccurate just a matter of interpretation. 
Edit 1: Just reading the new posts above I can see this has already been said, effectively.
 

Edit 2: Leica may have performed a cost analysis and ‘redesigned for manufacture’ to remove cost. Not unusual, and I would expect an analysis to be performed. It doesn’t mean parts have been redesigned, just assessed for benefit.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Steve Ricoh

[Mikep996]

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2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Why yes, of course - we live in wondrous times.  Literally anything is possible these days.

A dildo shaped UFO might land on the White House lawn and return to us v1.6.0.0 firmware installed alive and well, freeze up free Elvis Presley, Claude Monet and Joan of Arc, too.

 

Unfortunately, such action - sabotaging a product by a disgruntled employee(s) - is not particularly unusual.  A well-know motorcycle company, for example, discovered that employees were tossing sand into crankcases after assembly.  

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, Mikep996 said:

Unfortunately, such action - sabotaging a product by a disgruntled employee(s) - is not particularly unusual.  A well-know motorcycle company, for example, discovered that employees were tossing sand into crankcases after assembly.  

I will agree with you that sabotaging a product by employees who are ill treated, run into the ground and/or chronically underpaid by the companies the work for is known to happen.

From all that I have heard and read, Leica lens and camera technicians are neither ill treated, run into the ground and/or chronically underpaid.  Generations of families are said to work for Leica; these people are also said to be anywhere from enthusiastic to passionate about Leica cameras and lenses. 

If all the above information is accurate, I would think that Leica technicians would not be likely to sabotage the cameras that they build.  If they have a good thing going, why would they risk losing it?

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[Anbaric]

ChatGPT, why does the new Leica M6 scratch film?

'The Leica M6 is a mechanical rangefinder camera that uses a pressure plate to hold the film in place. The pressure plate is designed to keep the film flat and prevent it from slipping during exposure. However, some users have reported that the pressure plate on the Leica M6 can scratch the film, particularly when shooting with higher film speeds or using film that is thicker than usual.

There are a few possible reasons why the Leica M6 may scratch film:

    Pressure plate design: The pressure plate on the Leica M6 is made of metal and has a textured surface. Some users have reported that this texture can cause scratches on the film, particularly when shooting at higher film speeds or using thicker film.

    User error: It's possible that the scratches are being caused by user error. For example, if the film is not loaded correctly, it may not be held flat against the pressure plate, which could cause scratches.

    Manufacturing defects: It's also possible that some Leica M6 cameras may have manufacturing defects that cause the pressure plate to scratch film. However, this would likely only affect a small number of cameras.

If you are experiencing scratches on your film when using the Leica M6, you may want to try shooting at lower film speeds and using thinner film. You can also try adjusting the way you load the film to ensure it is held flat against the pressure plate. If the problem persists, you may want to contact Leica customer support or take the camera to a professional camera repair shop to have it inspected.'

[lmans]

5 hours ago, Huss said:

You're mad huh that Leica has admitted the defect is real - while before you were trying ssoooooo hard to push that it is user error.  Or a piece of grit.  Or developing.  Or just imaginary.

Now you are all hung up on the sarcastic joke about 'all new parts'. Because that to you is the real issue.  Not the fact that Leica has shipped defective cameras.

Why would I be upset and it surely wasn't any sarcastic joke you put forth as you clearly tagged on to what others were talking about with 'ALL parts"... ? I was just asking you to explain it, which you couldn't. But...read on:

You must admit when most people come up with scratches on film, it is due to human error in process or loading or perhaps a dirty camera as they let flakes of dust in etc... So yes, I would have been inclined to read on that side. I believe other people on the forum responded well to my question in regards to 'ALL parts'....take a look at what they have written as I feel it might better expand upon your knowledge on this allowing you to speak of this more clearly.... .. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by lmans

[lmans]

9 hours ago, archive_all said:

The all new parts may have been something lost in translation and then stated to a few people, it's probably all new parts from the original M6. Similarly there was an interview where they mentioned the new M6 light meter can replace the old M6 light meters but most probably know that isn't the case. The M-A is the same aside from the removal of the electronics, right? Isn't the battery hole just covered with a plate to fill it in?

This makes total sense...as this is what I thought....from the original M6. But not per se / different from other  current film cameras. It wouldn't make sense at this point for Leica to have different parts on the M6 as they do the MA or mp. So yes...agreed. 

I think Leica is struggling getting the right material to produce the same quality of parts they want. I have seen this in other things. IE...I just ordered in some screen doors and the quality of the door handle sucks. I asked the people and they said that the suppliers who handle the door parts can't find the right materials/elements etc to manufacture the handle so the quality is equal to old handles in durability etc. Shortage of elements to actually make the handle in the first place, even though it looks the same!...

So...why not for Leica too? 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by lmans

[archive_all]

2 hours ago, lmans said:

This makes total sense...as this is what I thought....from the original M6. But not per se / different from other  current film cameras. It wouldn't make sense at this point for Leica to have different parts on the M6 as they do the MA or mp. So yes...agreed. 

I think Leica is struggling getting the right material to produce the same quality of parts they want. I have seen this in other things. IE...I just ordered in some screen doors and the quality of the door handle sucks. I asked the people and they said that the suppliers who handle the door parts can't find the right materials/elements etc to manufacture the handle so the quality is equal to old handles in durability etc. Shortage of elements to actually make the handle in the first place, even though it looks the same!...

So...why not for Leica too? 

 

That's very possible. I ordered a part for my bike last year from a small company and they were out of different metal stocks for machining. It took a couple of months and I did hear that there was a global metal shortage at one point. I'm not sure if that's still ongoing.

[sanadsaad]

Just a quick note on my blank roll run in my Leica M6 #5684082. Fuji Superia xtra 400, loaded, shot and rewound, no scratches. Shot again and rewound. No scratches. Just in case forum is keeping a count on new M6s and how many are defective. 

[Anbaric]

ChatGPT, please write a short play in the style of Shakespeare about the tragedy of the new Leica M6 scratching film.

(The scene opens with a lone photographer pacing back and forth, clutching his beloved Leica M6 camera.)

'Photographer: Oh, cruel fate! How could you be so unkind, To take my Leica M6, a friend so fine, And let its film be scratched, like wounds unkind, That hurt my soul and wound my heart and mind.

(A figure appears from the shadows.)

Figure: Good sir, why do you weep and moan in pain? What doth bring such woe upon your frame?

Photographer: Alas! My Leica M6, my trusted friend, Hath been betrayed by fate and doomed to end. Its film, so precious, hath been scratched and torn, And now my art, my passion, is forlorn.

Figure: Ah, the Leica M6, a camera so fine, That captures moments, frozen in time. Its loss, I fear, is greater than you know, A tragedy that brings my heart so low.

Photographer: Indeed, good sir, you speak the truth so clear. The Leica M6, to me, was more than mere Instrument, tool or gadget, it was a part Of my soul, my art, my very beating heart.

Figure: Fear not, dear sir, for though the camera's gone, Your art remains, and still you carry on. For even scratched, the film may still surprise, And yield a work of art, a precious prize.

Photographer: Your words, good sir, bring solace to my soul, And give me hope that I may yet be whole. I'll shoot again, and trust in fate to find Another Leica M6, a friend so kind.

(The photographer takes a deep breath, looks up at the sky, and readies his camera. The figure fades back into the shadows as the photographer snaps a photo.)

Photographer: I thank you, fate, for teaching me to see That art endures, though cameras may not be.'

[Steve Ricoh]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

ChatGPT, please write a short play in the style of Shakespeare about the tragedy of the new Leica M6 scratching film.

(The scene opens with a lone photographer pacing back and forth, clutching his beloved Leica M6 camera.)

'Photographer: Oh, cruel fate! How could you be so unkind, To take my Leica M6, a friend so fine, And let its film be scratched, like wounds unkind, That hurt my soul and wound my heart and mind.

(A figure appears from the shadows.)

Figure: Good sir, why do you weep and moan in pain? What doth bring such woe upon your frame?

Photographer: Alas! My Leica M6, my trusted friend, Hath been betrayed by fate and doomed to end. Its film, so precious, hath been scratched and torn, And now my art, my passion, is forlorn.

Figure: Ah, the Leica M6, a camera so fine, That captures moments, frozen in time. Its loss, I fear, is greater than you know, A tragedy that brings my heart so low.

Photographer: Indeed, good sir, you speak the truth so clear. The Leica M6, to me, was more than mere Instrument, tool or gadget, it was a part Of my soul, my art, my very beating heart.

Figure: Fear not, dear sir, for though the camera's gone, Your art remains, and still you carry on. For even scratched, the film may still surprise, And yield a work of art, a precious prize.

Photographer: Your words, good sir, bring solace to my soul, And give me hope that I may yet be whole. I'll shoot again, and trust in fate to find Another Leica M6, a friend so kind.

(The photographer takes a deep breath, looks up at the sky, and readies his camera. The figure fades back into the shadows as the photographer snaps a photo.)

Photographer: I thank you, fate, for teaching me to see That art endures, though cameras may not be.'

Funny stuff! 🤣

Could you please ask Chat GPT how one would induce film grain like golf balls? (Answer in the film sub forum.) 

[Huss]

2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

ChatGPT, please write a short play in the style of Shakespeare about the tragedy of the new Leica M6 scratching film.

(The scene opens with a lone photographer pacing back and forth, clutching his beloved Leica M6 camera.)

'Photographer: Oh, cruel fate! How could you be so unkind, To take my Leica M6, a friend so fine, And let its film be scratched, like wounds unkind, That hurt my soul and wound my heart and mind.

(A figure appears from the shadows.)

Figure: Good sir, why do you weep and moan in pain? What doth bring such woe upon your frame?

Photographer: Alas! My Leica M6, my trusted friend, Hath been betrayed by fate and doomed to end. Its film, so precious, hath been scratched and torn, And now my art, my passion, is forlorn.

Figure: Ah, the Leica M6, a camera so fine, That captures moments, frozen in time. Its loss, I fear, is greater than you know, A tragedy that brings my heart so low.

Photographer: Indeed, good sir, you speak the truth so clear. The Leica M6, to me, was more than mere Instrument, tool or gadget, it was a part Of my soul, my art, my very beating heart.

Figure: Fear not, dear sir, for though the camera's gone, Your art remains, and still you carry on. For even scratched, the film may still surprise, And yield a work of art, a precious prize.

Photographer: Your words, good sir, bring solace to my soul, And give me hope that I may yet be whole. I'll shoot again, and trust in fate to find Another Leica M6, a friend so kind.

(The photographer takes a deep breath, looks up at the sky, and readies his camera. The figure fades back into the shadows as the photographer snaps a photo.)

Photographer: I thank you, fate, for teaching me to see That art endures, though cameras may not be.'

That is awesome!  Can I repost that giving you credit?  If not, that's ok.  

Edited February 17, 2023 by Huss

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

That is awesome!  Can I repost that giving you credit?  If not, that's ok.  

Sure, though the credit really goes to ChatGPT!

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Funny stuff! 🤣

Could you please ask Chat GPT how one would induce film grain like golf balls? (Answer in the film sub forum.) 

I'm too scared to post that in the film forum 🙂. It'll stick it in the chatbot thread.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Huss]

The curtain rises on a dimly lit room, with a lone photographer hunched over his camera. He is none other than Baggins, a hobbit who has spent years capturing the beauty of Middle Earth. His trusty Leica M6 lies on the table in front of him, a beacon of hope amidst the darkness.

BAGGINS: (whispering) Come on, my precious. Let's see what wonders we can capture today.

He gently loads a roll of film into the camera and begins to wind it forward. Suddenly, he stops, his heart sinking as he sees a scratch on the film.

BAGGINS: No, no, no! What have I done? How could I have let this happen?

He clutches his head in despair, muttering to himself in anguish.

BAGGINS: This was supposed to be my masterpiece. My magnum opus. And now, it's ruined. All because of a stupid scratch on the film.

He looks up, a single tear rolling down his cheek.

BAGGINS: (whispering) Oh, how I wish I had never been given this cursed gift of photography. It's brought me nothing but heartache and pain.

Just then, there is a knock at the door. Baggins wipes away his tears and composes himself before answering.

BAGGINS: Who is it?

VOICE: It is I, Gandalf the Grey. May I come in?

BAGGINS: Of course, my dear friend.

Gandalf enters the room, his staff glowing with an otherworldly light.

GANDALF: What troubles you, my friend? I sense a great sadness in your heart.

BAGGINS: It's my camera, Gandalf. My Leica M6. I've scratched the film, and now all my hard work is for nothing.

GANDALF: Ah, yes. The curse of the photographer. But do not despair, my friend. For even in tragedy, there is beauty to be found.

BAGGINS: (puzzled) What do you mean?

GANDALF: Look around you, Baggins. Look at the way the light falls on the walls, the way the shadows dance on the floor. These are the things that make life worth living. And even if your photograph is flawed, it can still capture a moment of beauty that will never be seen again.

Baggins nods, a glimmer of hope returning to his eyes.

BAGGINS: You're right, Gandalf. There is still beauty in the world. And as long as I have my camera, I can capture it, scratches and all.

GANDALF: That is the spirit, my friend. Remember, the camera is only a tool. It is the artist who creates the masterpiece.

Baggins smiles, feeling a weight lifted from his heart.

BAGGINS: Thank you, Gandalf. You always know just what to say.

GANDALF: It is my pleasure, Baggins. Now, let us go forth and capture the wonders of Middle Earth, scratches and all.

The two friends leave the room, their spirits lifted by the power of photography and the beauty of the world around them. The curtain falls, leaving the audience with a sense of hope and wonder in their hearts.

[Huss]

In the style of Hemingway

The stage is set with a small table and a chair. Sitting at the table is a lone photographer, known simply as "The Shooter". He is staring blankly at his Leica M6, a look of frustration etched on his face.

THE SHOOTER: Damn it all.

He takes a long sip of whiskey and lets out a deep sigh.

THE SHOOTER: That damn Leica. Thought it was supposed to be the best. But no, scratched the film on the very first shot.

He takes another sip of whiskey, the frustration building in his voice.

THE SHOOTER: It's supposed to be about capturing the truth, damn it. But how can I do that when the damn camera can't even do its job?

He slams his glass down on the table, the sound echoing through the empty room.

THE SHOOTER: Maybe I should just give it up. Hang up the camera and call it a day.

He pauses, his eyes fixed on the camera.

THE SHOOTER: But no. I can't give up. That's not who I am.

He picks up the camera and studies it closely, as if looking for a solution.

THE SHOOTER: Maybe I just need to try harder. Work at it until I get it right.

He loads another roll of film into the camera and takes a deep breath.

THE SHOOTER: It's just a scratch, damn it. It's not the end of the world.

He raises the camera to his eye, a look of determination on his face.

THE SHOOTER: I'll get it right this time. I have to.

The lights fade to black, leaving the audience with the image of a man determined to capture the truth, no matter the cost.