Exposure Metering - what to use?

[fenykepesz]

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vor 23 Stunden schrieb fenykepesz:

i fully agree, @jgeenen - that Olympus OM-4 Ti had an amazingly 'elegant' multi-point spot-light-meter, very useful !

i imagine that's something to achieve with a simple FW upgrade in the M11-D :: using the fx button as spot selector, the selected points counted in the VF as [ 1,2,3,etc ], the computed light meter value shown as [ -2,-1,0,+1,+2,whatever ] as compared to the current actual settings... 

 

vor 20 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Reminds me how far we have drifted from the M concept. 

...and how far we drifted, conceptually, from Ansel Adams' zone system too.

Edited August 14 by fenykepesz

[Robert Ardinger]

6 hours ago, fenykepesz said:

...and how far we drifted, conceptually, from Ansel Adams' zone system too.

Maybe not as far as you might think.  In the Zone system exposure was based on the desire to keep detail in areas important to the success for the image (detail in highlights, detail in shadows) then adjusting development to expand or contract (or leave as is) the tonal difference between the important highlights and shadows.  

Sort of similar (kind of) to adjusting the exposure compensation (-2,-1,+1,+2, etc.) to keep wanted detail in the highlights or shadows then "adjusting development" in post processing (black point, white point, highlights, shadows, etc.). At least that is how I think of it (and actually happy now that I am not developing sheets of film in various developers and at varying times).

[fenykepesz]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Robert Ardinger:

Maybe not as far as you might think.  In the Zone system exposure was based on the desire to keep detail in areas important to the success for the image (detail in highlights, detail in shadows) then adjusting development to expand or contract (or leave as is) the tonal difference between the important highlights and shadows.  

Sort of similar (kind of) to adjusting the exposure compensation (-2,-1,+1,+2, etc.) to keep wanted detail in the highlights or shadows then "adjusting development" in post processing (black point, white point, highlights, shadows, etc.). At least that is how I think of it (and actually happy now that I am not developing sheets of film in various developers and at varying times).

that's why i liked so much that multi-spot meter in the OM-4Ti :: it invited me to think in 'light zones', and supported me pro-actively through the picture taking & planning phase.  regarding EV, i just don't use it, i could never find the right use or the right feel for it.  but like you, i like to know the 'edges' of the light scale, black point & white point.  a built-in multi-spot-meter would be handy for that, in my opinion...

[jgeenen]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb fenykepesz:

it invited me to think in 'light zones'

That is so true - the combination of a  granular and wide spread light metering scale and the zone system was really helpful for me to learn and to create images.

However today, where the dynamic range of the sensor by far outweighs the dynamic range of a print, the zone system seems to be of lesser benefit (it still is beneficial to learn the dependencies of light, exposure and presentation), but I still see the benefits of "placing" mid tones or highlights. To be honest, as a stills photographer, I am not so much interested in a histogram if I can identify which highlights need tonal separation (there is obviously far less dependency on the shadows).  

But - as others mentioned, a Leica M camera never had been the tool for sophisticated metering, why should they change this? The "highlights emphasized" mode on the M11 is a good example on how less effort had been spent to design this function. It almost never works (without additional compensation as others have outlined correctly), a simple combination with spot metering to identify and place a "zone VII"  (If I remember correctly, the OM-4 "hi" button added about two stops) would have helped me far more. I'd use spot metering way more often

(please note: this is not to criticize Leica, it is just to give them hints on potentially useful enhancements within the M eco system.) 

[fenykepesz]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jgeenen:

That is so true - the combination of a  granular and wide spread light metering scale and the zone system was really helpful for me to learn and to create images.

However today, where the dynamic range of the sensor by far outweighs the dynamic range of a print, the zone system seems to be of lesser benefit (it still is beneficial to learn the dependencies of light, exposure and presentation), but I still see the benefits of "placing" mid tones or highlights. To be honest, as a stills photographer, I am not so much interested in a histogram if I can identify which highlights need tonal separation (there is obviously far less dependency on the shadows).  

But - as others mentioned, a Leica M camera never had been the tool for sophisticated metering, why should they change this? The "highlights emphasized" mode on the M11 is a good example on how less effort had been spent to design this function. It almost never works (without additional compensation as others have outlined correctly), a simple combination with spot metering to identify and place a "zone VII"  (If I remember correctly, the OM-4 "hi" button added about two stops) would have helped me far more. I'd use spot metering way more often

(please note: this is not to criticize Leica, it is just to give them hints on potentially useful enhancements within the M eco system.) 

i fully agree with your comments, @jgeenen, and i am in fact kind of perfectly happy with the highlight metering mode i am using these days, although me too, i regularly tend to scale down by a stop or so, as many times as i had in the past burned my fingers with those burned out highlights...

btw, with my M11-D, i am kind of histogram-free - and i wouldn't have time anyway for such.  still, once in a while i wouldn't mind to place two or three spot measures on the critical areas in an important photo, à la OM-4Ti, like in this moment here, just a few days ago.

tschüß !

[costa43]

None of the metering modes on the M11 or any other camera I’ve ever used are foolproof. You learn how ‘they’ see the light and intervene accordingly. I much prefer being in control and shooting in manual mode. I tend to air on the side of caution and lift exposure in post. So much latitude with new cameras nowadays in the shadows and most sensors are ISO invariant too. This method also allows me to use a faster shutter speed at the time of the shot. 

Edited August 22 by costa43

[Derbyshire Man]

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On 8/14/2025 at 5:08 PM, fenykepesz said:

that's why i liked so much that multi-spot meter in the OM-4Ti :: it invited me to think in 'light zones', and supported me pro-actively through the picture taking & planning phase.  regarding EV, i just don't use it, i could never find the right use or the right feel for it.  but like you, i like to know the 'edges' of the light scale, black point & white point.  a built-in multi-spot-meter would be handy for that, in my opinion...

Same with the Canon T90 and finally Canon 1v.

with the current sensor and software however multi spot metering isn’t needed, it’s already doing it; for example in highlight priority mode the camera already scans the whole sensor and looks at the highlights. It could do the same with the shadows and the central spot under the RF patch. How it displays this already captured information is what is missing.

What was unique and really helpful in the Canon was that it displayed the spots on the exposure scale with mid grey in the centre, I then used exposure compensation to protect shadows or highlights as needed. The M11 with an updated display in the OVF could do that too, still show the dots and arrow, and seriously, critically, the damn shutter speed when in manual shutter speed mode (like it’s das Wesentliche after all)!

 

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Edited August 22 by Derbyshire Man

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, costa43 said:

None of the metering modes on the M11 or any other camera I’ve ever used are foolproof. You learn how ‘they’ see the light and intervene accordingly. I much prefer being in control and shooting in manual mode. I tend to air on the side of caution and lift exposure in post. So much latitude with new cameras nowadays in the shadows and most sensors are ISO invariant too. This method also allows me to use a faster shutter speed at the time of the shot. 

FWIW: while most sensors have ISO invariant ranges, they are not exposure invariant. If you reduce exposure by increasing shutter speed, you reduce DR and add noise. ISO invariance is valid only when keeping the exposure (shutter speed and aperture) constant.

[SrMi]

On 8/14/2025 at 1:10 PM, fenykepesz said:

i wouldn't mind to place two or three spot measures on the critical areas in an important photo, à la OM-4Ti, like in this moment here, just a few days ago.

You are better off and quicker, turning on LV and using histogram and highlight clipping to adjust the exposure.

[costa43]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

FWIW: while most sensors have ISO invariant ranges, they are not exposure invariant. If you reduce exposure by increasing shutter speed, you reduce DR and add noise. ISO invariance is valid only when keeping the exposure (shutter speed and aperture) constant.

Good to know, thank you. I do not tend to really underexpose, it's usually just a little faster than is necessary. I can't say I've noticed a difference but I've not looked hard enough. I just prefer this way of shooting rather than relying on the metering. In fact, I would want no metering at all in my perfect digital M!

[fenykepesz]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

You are better off and quicker, turning on LV and using histogram and highlight clipping to adjust the exposure.

thank you, @SrMi, but i am working with the M11-D these days...

[SrMi]

35 minutes ago, fenykepesz said:

thank you, @SrMi, but i am working with the M11-D these days...

I see :), beautiful camera. I have it set to highlight-weighted and use experience to apply EC.