Buying into the Digital M System

[Adam Bonn]

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19 minutes ago, jakontil said:

though m11 viso stop working, im still keeping it

I’m not sure everyone would be so forgiving here.. 

I think, well hunch, is that the M11 is different things for different people, those that use a lot the EVF and the fotos app plus like functional continuity with their other more erm ‘modern’ cameras are really pleased with the M11 solution and battery life. Those that don’t aren’t as motivated to upgrade

The things that appeal to me about the M11 are ISO64 and (in black) the weight saving. Which isn’t a very big list for all of that extra money. It would also be a bit of a waste as I can’t imagine using it in 60mpx mode very often!

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[jakontil]

38 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

 

The things that appeal to me about the M11 are ISO64 and (in black) the weight saving. Which isn’t a very big list for all of that extra money. It would also be a bit of a waste as I can’t imagine using it in 60mpx mode very often!

hi adam, i might not be forgiving after all, but this is already my 2nd set of m11, and returning it for service or replacement is quite a hassle hence at the moment im good with that i have

fortunately, i dont use much of viso, just looks cool like my life not depend on it

i agree with you, the iso64 is quite appealing and i have few fast leica glasses to go with, though under my shooting condition, iso100 was more a bigger step compared to m10 days, the battery, though looks big in capacity, in all honesty not much of a deal compared to m10r, again this is under my shooting situation where i could live out throughout the day but the additional usb c port is what really makes a difference where charging it is so much easier! transferring files to leica photos wirelessly is also somehow faster? may be due to its 5ghz options though i use cable most of the times for backup purposes, and i aint so sure bout the weight saving is a plus for me since i prefer the brass weights still lol 

image quality? well couldnt tell the difference between the two and i always apply the same old presets from my m10 days

[Adam Bonn]

It’s the rub of buying used really, in the UK the price difference between 10R and 11 new is £400, but on the used market it’s £2000

16 minutes ago, jakontil said:

i might not be forgiving after all, but this is already my 2nd set of m11, and returning it for service or replacement is quite a hassle hence at the moment im good with that i have

That’s not really a glowing endorsement 😅

17 minutes ago, jakontil said:

i aint so sure bout the weight saving is a plus for me since i prefer the brass weights still

Yeah I like brass over alloy too, but these modern ‘black/silver chromed’ Leicas brass (sic) to silver anyway so screw it, might as well take the weight saving! (Appreciate that’s not the case with the M10R-BP, M9, 240 in black)

20 minutes ago, jakontil said:

image quality? well couldnt tell the difference between the two and i always apply the same old presets from my m10 days

Yeah the huge IQ/DR jump was the M9 to the 240, and a great many people were (and continue to be) very focal about preferring the M9 images over the 240 ones. 😅

 

[pgk]

18 hours ago, Musky said:

I was just reading a very old thread about the CCD sensors on DPreview. This is when Leica was still releasing cameras with that sensor. People were saying the same thing. 

And FWIW my M9s are still going strong, still delivering great images (within their capabilities) and have been supported by Leica to the point of replacing sensors with good, 'new' ones. Despite all the complaints they have proven to be great cameras. That Sid, digital cameras do have a potentially finite life and this needs o be factored in to the cost/usage equation if such things bother you. At this point my M9s owe me nothing and every photo I take with them is a bonus. Again, FWIW I have always though of cameras having up to a 10 year life but have sometimes replaced them before this. Often though they have exceeded this (Canon 5D2s used underwater are still going strong for example but this is helped by running them cool no doubt).

[JuveFC]

1 hour ago, Adam Bonn said:

I’m not sure everyone would be so forgiving here.. 

I think, well hunch, is that the M11 is different things for different people, those that use a lot the EVF and the fotos app plus like functional continuity with their other more erm ‘modern’ cameras are really pleased with the M11 solution and battery life. Those that don’t aren’t as motivated to upgrade

The things that appeal to me about the M11 are ISO64 and (in black) the weight saving. Which isn’t a very big list for all of that extra money. It would also be a bit of a waste as I can’t imagine using it in 60mpx mode very often!

Completely agree, i know i wouldn't be so forgiving but I also agree with jakontil that sending anything in for service is a real PITA. 

If I were to upgrade, the better battery life would be one of the reasons. The other is being able to use my Visoflex 2 at its full resolution. I mostly shoot portraits so a visoflex is important to me especially seeing that I couple old SLR lenses to my M10-P like the Nikon 105mm/2.5 and the Minolta 58mm/1.2. The VF on the M10-P just drains the battery so quickly. 

[jakontil]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

 

Yeah the huge IQ/DR jump was the M9 to the 240, and a great many people were (and continue to be) very focal about preferring the M9 images over the 240 ones. 😅

 

 that's way overhyped but yeah, silent is gold... i miss my m240 more if i can say... but m10 form factor bettered it out in everyway hahhaha have a great day adam!

[jakontil]

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3 hours ago, JuveFC said:

Completely agree, i know i wouldn't be so forgiving but I also agree with jakontil that sending anything in for service is a real PITA. 

If I were to upgrade, the better battery life would be one of the reasons. The other is being able to use my Visoflex 2 at its full resolution. I mostly shoot portraits so a visoflex is important to me especially seeing that I couple old SLR lenses to my M10-P like the Nikon 105mm/2.5 and the Minolta 58mm/1.2. The VF on the M10-P just drains the battery so quickly. 

so do i, mostly shoot portraits.. but i guess despite having the visoflex, my comfort zone is always with the RF, or may be im just a little too idealist.. btw, i love how the IS work in liveview including the visoflex, it might be incremental improvement people wont notice it but impactful imho

[Kiwimac]

I have to say it is hard to get a feel for the size of the problems with the M11.

I cannot work out whether - say - 10% have issues or 75% have issues or, indeed, whether firmware has fixed anything.

It does feel as though there are too many problems given the sticker price of an M - I would expect Rolex like reliability at that price when we all know that much less expensive cameras will work more reliably. Leica should be a bit embarrassed really.

I really want to jump in with the M11. I like many of the features - resolution options, better battery, internal memory would probably be my top 3. However I am teetering on the edge of buying the last M10-R in NZ available new if I can get it, with a view to shooting it for a couple of years and then trading it in for an M11P which hopefully by then is more reliable.

I don't like that it feels like buying last year's laptop or something rather than the newest gear however!

Edited December 25, 2022 by Kiwimac

[Adam Bonn]

1 hour ago, Kiwimac said:

It does feel as though there are too many problems given the sticker price of an M

From what you’ve posted about your corner of the world I might be more concerned about the potential support than the potential problems…

The M11 turns one next month, so the 11-p probably isn’t that far away… either way Leica should have made any production changes they need by now to resolve any physical problems and their coders should have ironed out many of the bugs.. of course there’s no huge guarantee that a new M11 isn’t from an original production run.

They’ll get there with it though.. at the risk of sounding rude, off sensor metering, a better wifi/BT chip and a UHS-ii card slot (probably the biggest functionality changes at a component level) aren’t a black art, in fact many other OEMs nailed them years ago

[Kiwimac]

@Adam Bonn

 Yes the lack of support is a bit concerning. Most camera companies here have facilities in Australia at least which isn’t so far. That said, when I was shooting Nikon I had a damaged 14-24 that had to go to Japan for repair. The difference is I got it back inside 3 weeks whereas Leica are as legendary for the length of time repairs take as they are for their lenses!!

 

 The dealer said 

 

“After a year of delays and waiting for backorders, we finally have M11 available in both colours.”

 

 Which suggests to me that current stock would be later production. NZ orders are probably filled long after bigger countries like the USA and demand isn’t great - hence the fact that there is a new M10 and a new M10-R still available here. 

[mark r.]

M10 is great if you set E/C less than 0, set mine at -2/3. Once you 'get' the digital side of M10, then you can set your exposures..all depends on the light.

[Snipe10]

Was in the same boat, I have a Q2 Monochrom and just bought a mint M10R Black Paint. Haven't bought any lenses yet but it was an easy decision to pass/wait on the M11 and go with a proven platform. I'm new to the M platform and will be spending enough time learning how to use it and didn't want to complicate matters with issues from the M11.

Super excited to have made the jump. I fell I have the best of both Worlds with the Q2M and the M10R Black Paint. Just need to get a 28mm and 50mm lens now to get going! 

I'm so excited I bought two Fogg bags late last night while surfing around! I need to learn to stay off the internet late at night after a couple of drams of whisky.

[mechs]

I was in a similar situation recently and ended up picking up an MP and an M10. I just got tired of juggling different systems and lenses for different purposes (Leica bodies and glass for analog, Fujifilm bodies and third party glass for digital, and Nikon lens for scanning film). 

I never thought I'd get a digital Leica but alas, here we are. I traded in a bunch of stuff and the total cost out of pocket was the equivalent of the price of the M10. The issue for me is that the cost associated with film was stopping me from going out and shooting regularly and this really bothered me.

I am still a little apprehensive about future parts availability and potential repair costs for the M10. If I can get a good 5 years out of the M10, I'd be very happy I think. I'm now down to an M2/MP combo for analog and an M10 for digital plus a 28/50mm combo, which is honestly more than I need for the type of work I do. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by mechs