Chinese lenses

[Cobram]

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@lct@dpittSometimes, especially in indoor situations, there is a need of high shutter speeds in order to avoid unsharp photos of moving kids on stage... I used to own Minolta 90mm F4 which was perfect for outdoor shots in good light, size was small, but it was not really usable indoor. I understand that for many photographers F4 is enough, but for me it is not. I hope now my explanation is more reasonable.

80% of shots is related to outdoor activities. Indoor concerts, sport events (climbing) etc are rare (once per month for example) events when a tele lens with F2 is needed. But I really want to preserve memories of my kids performances that's why those few percents at wider apertures are emotionally important to me.

I'm now leaning towards Cron 75 or Summarit 75 2.4 (due to near focus 0.7m). I hope F2.4 will be enough for all before mentioned situations otherwise I need to spend >2500 euro for a Cron... in this case I think 7Artisans appear as a cheaper and maybe, that's also my main question, reliable alternative.

Anyway, Thank you guys for your answers. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Cobram

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[adan]

42 minutes ago, Cobram said:

I'm now leaning towards Cron 75 or Summarit 75 2.4 (due to near focus 0.7m). I hope F2.4 will be enough for all before mentioned situations otherwise I need to spend >2500 euro for a Cron...

Might look into the Cosina/Voigtländer 75mm f/1.5 - weight of the Summarit, speed of a Summilux, resolution approaching the APO-Summicron (at least down to 1.6 meters, then it gets Summilux-dreamy), price around $900.

I don't use any other Voigtländers at the moment, but this one they will have to pry from my cold, dead fingers.....  

Not promoting any sales site in particular - this one just has more info than most...

https://shop.cameraquest.com/voigtlander-leica-mount-lenses/voigtlander-75mm-f/1.5-nokton-leica-m-black/

[lct]

2 hours ago, Cobram said:

I think 7Artisans appear as a cheaper and maybe, that's also my main question, reliable alternative.

Reliable i don't know as i have no experience with this lens but my Summarit 75/2.5 had a fragile aperture ring. No problem with either Summicron 75/2 and Summilux 75/1.4 but f/2 is not always wide enough indoor and the Summilux is not a compact lens so i ordered the CV 75/1.5 referred to by @adan above. I have not received it yet so i don't know if it is a China made lens but my other CV lenses have a very good quality.

[Cobram]

I'm also thinking to order Nokton 75. Seems a nice cheaper alternative to Leica glass.

In the meantime I read a short article comparing Lux 75, Nokton 75 and 7artisans 75 1.25. The reviewer pointed out how difficult it was to achieve precise proper focus with 7artisans and Lux comparing to Nokton. That alone is a huge benefit for me because usually, in indoor situations, my ratio of properly focused photos is quite lower. On the other hand reviewer appreciated 7artisans creamy out of focus rendering.

[dpitt]

See below

Edited January 9, 2023 by dpitt

[dpitt]

10 hours ago, Cobram said:

@lct@dpittSometimes, especially in indoor situations, there is a need of high shutter speeds in order to avoid unsharp photos of moving kids on stage... I used to own Minolta 90mm F4 which was perfect for outdoor shots in good light, size was small, but it was not really usable indoor. I understand that for many photographers F4 is enough, but for me it is not. I hope now my explanation is more reasonable.

80% of shots is related to outdoor activities. Indoor concerts, sport events (climbing) etc are rare (once per month for example) events when a tele lens with F2 is needed. But I really want to preserve memories of my kids performances that's why those few percents at wider apertures are emotionally important to me.

I'm now leaning towards Cron 75 or Summarit 75 2.4 (due to near focus 0.7m). I hope F2.4 will be enough for all before mentioned situations otherwise I need to spend >2500 euro for a Cron... in this case I think 7Artisans appear as a cheaper and maybe, that's also my main question, reliable alternative.

Anyway, Thank you guys for your answers. 

I was responding to you mentioning your intention to use the lens mainly at F4.
IMO it would still be a bad plan if the lens is not performing well wide open and for the first few stops.

I like your plan with Summicron or Summarit (only half a stop slower) much better because they perform well wide open, adding what you need with extra high ISO indoors should do the trick. Also, the Summarit looks a lot less bulky. Its up to you of course, but I would much prefer a used Summarit to a new 7Artisans.

And regarding the price of 7Artisans... What will their resale value be in let's say 2 years compared to the Summicron or Summarit?

[sometimesmaybe]

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9 hours ago, Cobram said:

The reviewer pointed out how difficult it was to achieve precise proper focus with 7artisans and Lux comparing to Nokton

that's prob due to the spherical aberrations that makes the image look soft and glowie. i love this this lens, but i only use it at f2.8 - where it gives a nice balance between IQ and 'character'.

the really big downside with the 7A is its size and weight. not an issue for me as i'm either in a studio or at a single location, but it's def not a everyday walk around lens!

3 hours ago, dpitt said:

And regarding the price of 7Artisans... What will their resale value be in let's say 2 years compared to the Summicron or Summarit?

peanuts! i picked up my 7A used for between USD200 - 250 (cant remb the exact amount)

[3D-Kraft.com]

My experience with Chinese lenses is very wide-ranging. Here too, the rule is: "You get what you pay for", but at a significantly lower price level compared to Leica and Zeiss and still considerably below Voigtländer.

I see 7Artians as being more at the lower end, although there may be differences from model to model.

Here a comparison of two 100% crops of two 75mm f/1.25 lenses under identical conditions and with identical post processing:

7Artisans 75mm f/1.25:

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Leica Noctilux 75mm f/1.25 ASPH:

 

But if the 28x more expensive Leica is also 28x better than the 7As, depends mostly on your brand enthusiasm...

If you look at the Thypoch Simeras, the situation is pretty different. Some of them already surpassed the image quality of the corresponding Summiluxes with a definitely better price preformance ratio.

[J S H]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but would add that there are manufacturers such as Laowa that don't copy existing designs. Laowa is breaking new ground and leap frogging Leica in design innovations, especially in the realm of ultrawide lenses. The Laowa 15 F2 M mount is unrivaled by any Leica lens, as is the 12-24 zoom and the 9mm F/5.6. The newly released Laowa 15mm F5 is the smallest full frame ultrawide ever offered and is a solid performer compared to other small ultrawides. It's not as good as the 15 F2, but it's 1/4 of the size.

I hope to see that trend of innovation continue - Leica is being left in the dust when it comes to bang for the buck (and occasionally in outright performance) by Voigtlander, Thypoch, Laowa, etc and competition is always a good thing for the market in general. 

Edited December 15, 2024 by J S H

[FrozenInTime]

9 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Yes but do not forget that QC of Laowa is a super lottery hit and miss affair, sadly and unfortunately... I have started the 9mm thread just to show what can be done and it is a World Record for general use in widest angle linear category nevertheless, let alone for RF coupled use.

Not M-mount, but I am awaiting delivery, ordered early November, of the Laowa Argus T1 18mm and 25mm MFT cine lens set.

A bit of a leap of faith, but hope built to order cine lenses will see more rigorous QC than regular off the shelf photo lenses.

[J S H]

27 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Yes but do not forget that QC of Laowa is a super lottery hit and miss affair, sadly and unfortunately... I have started the 9mm thread just to show what can be done and it is a World Record for general use in widest angle linear category nevertheless, let alone for RF coupled use. Still, I am lucky mine is flawless. Previous two Laowa lenses were not.

I own about 10 of them across various mounts going back to the old DSLR versions of the 12mm F/2.8 and not one dud yet. I have the 9MM in both E and M mounts and both are stellar. The new 15 F/5 is the only one that isn't truly up to my standards, but I actually believe it's performing as designed.  I am willing to forgive the average image quality, because it is so impressively small.

[Einst_Stein]

I have several Laowa lenses, including the Zero Distortion wide angle and the recently acquired shift-zoom. I am quite happy with them.

Are Laowa copy-cat of any lenses?

[J S H]

They seem to be quite innovative. Many of their lenses are pushing the boundaries of what is possible, so if they are copying existing formulas, it seems to be more for inspiration. They also have some serious innovations on the cinema side, and continue to release great lenses in that realm as well. The build quality has improved a bit over the years and some of their recent M wide angles are actually quite well built...not quite Leica level, but definitely approaching Voigtlander build quality.

Almost all of their cinema lenses are yet another level up from the M lenses in build quality, especially the Proteus 2x Anamorphic line and their Anamorphic zooms. Hopefully that build quality will eventually filter down to their lower end stills offerings as well. 

[J S H]

3 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

Not M-mount, but I am awaiting delivery, ordered early November, of the Laowa Argus T1 18mm and 25mm MFT cine lens set.

A bit of a leap of faith, but hope built to order cine lenses will see more rigorous QC than regular off the shelf photo lenses.

I have several of their Anamorphic cine lenses and all are excellent. Not only with regards to IQ, but also mechanical qualities and even down to the way they supply both PL & EF mounts that are easy to switch out and once shimmed correctly, hold backfocus during the mount change. So they didn't gloss over the boring, but important details. I suspect you will be quite happy with the ones you have on order. 

[Einst_Stein]

Besides Laowa, Thypoch is also an excellent brand. Not on par with Leica yet, but definitely exceeds Voigtlander. And it is not a copy-cat.

[Knightspirit]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:50 AM, jankap said:

Do lenses need support? And if, then there are third parties for CLA-ing. Otherwise use it as a museum piece in your cupboard.

I just bought the Dreamlens. I don't believe, that Canon still has spare parts for it.

Not to get off topic - but how do you like it? Compared to the VM 50mm F1 - is it even remotely sharp at 0.95? Just wondering...

[pippy]

1 hour ago, Einst_Stein said:

Besides Laowa, Thypoch is also an excellent brand. Not on par with Leica yet, but definitely exceeds Voigtlander. And it is not a copy-cat.

I must say I greatly liked the idea behind the Thypoch lenses when they were announced and managed to try them out slightly later.

The lenses were perfectly fine in almost every way but there were two things which didn't marry-up with the way I like my lenses to behave. The first was that the 'click-stop / resistance' to inform one that r/f focussing was going in to the 'close-up' range was so soft as to be imperceptible although this is possibly something which might change from one example to the next?

The other, however, was that the aperture click-stops are at 1/3 intervals instead of 1/2-stop intervals. I really dislike 1/3-stop clicks so, for me, that was an end of the matter.

Shame, though, as they were very nice.

Philip.

[Einst_Stein]

User interface could be the weak link of these new comers. I think they still have some way to go. Sometimes, it just needs time to get used to. 

Like some other new users I know, I found even Leica M and Hasselblad V are hard to use.  But once  I found their image quality, I can tolerate all their "drawback". Eventually those "drawback" becomes their strength. 

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Hallo,

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[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Einst_Stein:

Besides Laowa, Thypoch is also an excellent brand. Not on par with Leica yet, but definitely exceeds Voigtlander. And it is not a copy-cat.

I did not compare all of their lense designs, but the 50/1.4 ASPH looks pretty similar to the 50 Summilux ASPH. But they have been able to improve some weaknesses of the Summilux, e.g. the "midzone dip".

vor 33 Minuten schrieb pippy:

The first was that the 'click-stop / resistance' to inform one that r/f focussing was going in to the 'close-up' range was so soft as to be imperceptible although this is possibly something which might change from one example to the next?

They listened. The resistance when entering the "close up" range is clearly perceptible on the new 50/1.4 and it also does not have the unloved infinity stop anymore.

[pippy]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

What about the misfortunately placed focusing ring next to the body? That feature got the most complaints from users.

Really? That comes as a bit of a surprise, Al, as in the hand I thought the lenses felt absolutely natural and 'second-nature'.

Then again; for donkey's years - from 1980 - the only lenses I had for my M2 were a 35mm Summaron (M) and a 50mm f2.8 collapsible Elmar-M (and before the M2 I used a 'Barnack' with its 50mm f3.5 '11 o'clock' Elmar) so, growing up, having a focus-ring sited slap-bang next to the mount and the lens being fitted with an infinity-lock was all I ever knew.

FWIW it's still my preferred layout to this day on pretty much any lens up to and including 50mm.

Philip.

Edited December 16, 2024 by pippy