The psychology of "quitting" colour

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

PS.. It might have been valuable for her to also discuss colored lens filters, color channels in PP, etc, but I think the concepts that she does discuss in the lecture are often misunderstood, and very useful for those trying to understand the basics of color conversions and attempting to see the world in b&w. 

Jeff

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[ramarren]

Her presentation is flawed. Personally, I find this lecture (which has been posted in a half a dozen different threads now) nearly unwatchable. Her presentation style does not jibe with me.

If you have two things of different colors with equal luminosity and strip away saturation and hue, they look the same in a B&W recording with equal sensitivity to the color spectra which includes those two colors. This creates images with no differentiation between elements of a scene that are differently colored but of equal luminosity.

If you want to separate those things in tonal value, with recording media that is equally sensitive to both, you need to do something to change the luminosity from the perspective of the recording medium so the two things can be differentiated. That's what you use B&W filters to do ... alter the effective luminosity to the recording medium of differently colored things of equal luminosity so that they render with different tones. The use of filters to do this is how hue and saturation remain important to the B&W image.

Restating this concept once more: to work with a monochrome recording medium ... whether it is film or a digital sensor ... you have to understand the spectral characteristics of the sensor before you can measure the effective luminosity of the subject. You have to think about what you want in the scene to be differentiated in tonal value, given the characteristics of the recording medium. And you often need filters to separate some of the colors into b&w tones that meet your desires/expectations/whatever. 

That's all I'm saying, and that's why color and hue, even though they are not represented directly in a b&w recording, remain important and have a big influence on what you obtain with a monochrome camera.  

G

[Jeff S]

Most people these days use digital cameras that record color, not monochrome-based sensors.  They don’t typically deal with color filters for b&w output (although some will later adjust color channels in post to achieve desired effects).  For those of them wanting b&w results (and not relying on JPEGS or film simulations, etc), the principles discussed in the lecture can help to better understand the characteristics of color, how not to be distracted by color saturation and hue, and to concentrate more on the light.
 

For those of us with b&w film/darkroom experience (minority), or those using a digital monochrome camera (extreme minority), the concepts you describe take on much more meaning and practical relevance.  But for the latter, and for those still using b&w film, of course the principles you describe, the use of filters, etc, remain important. 

I started my b&w film journey in 1974, and read Adams’ book trilogy in the early 80’s, introducing me to filter effects, etc, and prompting me to build my first darkroom (eventually four over the next decades). Those teachings served me well. But most of today’s camera users, even those converting to b&w, don’t need to repeat that sort of training, nor gain a deep understanding of spectral sensitivities; rather, they would do well to first understand a bit about color characteristics and better seeing subject matter with b&w in mind.  

That’s all I was saying.  And, yes, some aspects of her presentation grate a bit… not the least of which is her failure to provide proper attribution to other photographers’ works she presents.

Jeff

Edited April 19, 2023 by Jeff S

[ramarren]

Well, we are of course having this discussion in the "M Monochrom" section of the Leica website, and the question posed is specifically "the psychology of quitting color" ... so I presume that I'm speaking to an already motivated group of people who are either just beginning to use or are considering buying a monochrome only recording device here.

The young photographers outside of the venue that I chat and work with are also motivated to actually learn B&W: they usually contact me because they like the B&W photos I post and are curious to know how I do it ... they tell me, over and over again, that their first attempts at B&W with whatever camera (digital or film) are not satisfying to them for whatever reason. 

I think presuming that because "99% of anyone under age 30 has mostly learned what they know of photography with a color-capable digital camera" means that they can't or don't want to learn B&W photography fundamentals—even if they want to do B&W photography—is a poor way to advance their knowledge and skills. 

G

Edited April 19, 2023 by ramarren

[Jeff S]

Even for those shooting with a Monochrom, learning some basics about color attributes, and having guidance (including common misconceptions) about seeing in black and white, is essential.  Teaching has to start somewhere; deeper concepts follow. I’ve helped many along that road over the years, including steps to effectively translate those concepts to print…a minority audience within a minority audience …including some here who have privately expressed gratitude for my improving their b&w print journey. I happily did the same in my darkroom days, further helping young photographers view my vintage print and book collection… showing real examples, not just theory. Learning happens in many ways. 

Jeff

[ramarren]

I don't disagree, but I can't tell what your approach is.

Aren't the very basics of doing B&W photography first: understanding what the recording medium sees, and second: learning how to manipulate what you show it in order to obtain the image you want?

Saying that hue and saturation don't matter, only luminance matters, to someone who has always done color photography seems an odd way to begin the journey into monochrome work. I'd have to hear something before that for it to make sense. 

G

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

She makes many points in the course of 2 hours, only one of which relates to color hue and saturation. Many people, as she notes, shoot for color and only after the fact convert to b&w to see how it looks.  Her examples at least make one stop and think about how this isn’t just some simple exercise and that the many effects of light (her main points) are critical. Beyond that, yes, there are many aspects about how it all actually works; sensors/film and filter characteristics are  among the many concepts/details. She clearly missed covering these points.

Anyway, my teaching approach is not hers, and varies greatly depending on the audience, the desired goal(s), as well as logistics and time parameters involved. I try to adapt accordingly.

Jeff

[Olaf_ZG]

You can talk what you want, but I have problems with b/w from color raw files.

with the mm, I adjust the curve for additional contrast and here the base is basically done.

with color files, I get lost: didn’t find a simple base yet which fits the majority of images, start playing around and in the end, I prefer the color image.

Maybe it is my ignorance as I just started with LR whereas my previous experience is fuji + C1 which probably resulted in - to me - better base.

 I wouldn’t be able to leave color behind, but having a dedicated b/w camere perfectly suits me.

[ramarren]

5 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

You can talk what you want, but I have problems with b/w from color raw files.

with the mm, I adjust the curve for additional contrast and here the base is basically done.

with color files, I get lost: didn’t find a simple base yet which fits the majority of images, start playing around and in the end, I prefer the color image.

Maybe it is my ignorance as I just started with LR whereas my previous experience is fuji + C1 which probably resulted in - to me - better base.

 I wouldn’t be able to leave color behind, but having a dedicated b/w camere perfectly suits me.

I guess we all have our limitations. Try as I might, I have never been able to get C1 to do anything useful ... but when I first started using LR way back in the dawn of time, I managed to get a couple of RGB raw to monochrome curves defined and set at presets within couple of hours. I've been using those presets now for almost 20 years. 

That said, using the M10-M with an orange or green filter on it, depending on light and subject, minimizes what I need to do in post to almost nothing.

G

[250swb]

Did I miss this one? Haven't photographers always seen in colour and then imagined that in B&W? And then manipulated that imagination with film, development, or printing? Even with a B&W camera don't you still see in colour and imagine in B&W! All the B&W camera does is cut out the exciting imagination phase and deliver a pre-packed oven ready solution, exciting if that gets you excited. 

[Jeff S]

Speak for yourself.  I shoot my Monochroms the same way I’ve shot other M cameras, both film and digital. RF viewing, in color.  The only difference for me, as I’ve already written, is that it brings me closer to the mindset I had when shooting b&w film, by not being distracted looking for potential color pics.  Simple as that; nothing “pre-packaged” about it. I still shoot the same way, and still do my own editing, printing, matting and framing. The trade-off for me when using a Monochrom is not being able to use color channels in PP.  OMMV.

Jeff

[algrove]

Interesting thread and we all have our own comments.

OP, for me unlike what you want to know what influenced one to give up Color photography, it was color that first influenced me to give up B&W photography. It was the M9 at a pivotal time in my life when doctors were saying after I lost one eye that the second one was about to go too.

Years earlier in my life, I had been suddenly immersed in newspaper and yearbook photography in college which was B&W for me forty-five years earlier. I never shot color. The M9 was color and I rushed to create new images in case I went blind while wanting to leave something artistic behind. My wife understood and as a painter helped me with colors in the Digital darkroom. It was a total flop and then someone at Leica suggested I convert my images to B&W. I was a kid in a candy shop. THEN the M9M was introduced and I jumped on it. My one good eye still functions and I went everywhere in the US and parts of Europe to shoot in B&W. I still kept trying to perfect color and I got better by going to American SW workshops. Some days I would shot only color since that is what moved me that very day. I always took my monochrome with me. Then one day while shooting some small sand dunes a spark went off inside me and I pulled out the Monochrom. The scene talked to me in B&W, not color even though it was terra cotta in color. The wind ripples and shadows in the sand mesmerized me and I only saw B&W.

Today I shoot both color and B&W, but like B&W best since it speaks to me. When I look at a B&W image, it is me. Today I search out locations where B&W yells out loud to me. A monochrome is me. I have also owned Phase Achromatic digital backs, but the small form factor of a Leica is better for me. I do not print large, perhaps 17x22 at the largest size.

One comment about others viewing your files. From time to time I have been asked did I Photoshop this or that in a color image. I say no that I worked on the files.Frankly I am no expert with Photoshop or any other software, but don't tell them that. I just say I work on the files. So when people look at my B&W prints, I have never been asked did I modify the image with Photoshop. Never. I find this strange that a B&W image is totally modified more so than a color image since we see in color and not B&W. People easily accept B&W in photography and not once has anyone questioned me about what did the scene look like in color, and why did I shoot it or show it in B&W, how was it manipulated, etc, etc. Strange world.

Fast forward to the M11M. I am working out how to use mine as best as possible for me. Many that use a rangefinder do not necessarily like EVF's or want an EVF. I can understand that and I have been there myself. But with this M11M if one wants to see in B&W just put on the EVF and you will never see color through the EVF again. No playing around with setting jpegs to B&W and then recording both DNG and Jpgs in order to get you "seeing" in B&W or thinking in B&W.  Everything about this camera is B&W. The M11M is a DNG monster with a B&W heart. I feed it as often as I can. And it feeds me right back. I thank myself every day that I continue to see, especially in B&W.

Edited April 21, 2023 by algrove

[IkarusJohn]

I’m not sure I understand the concept of “quitting colour”.

We see in colour (rods & cones and all that), but what we see is not photography - at least not for me.  Photography is a representation of what we see - if it’s just a record of reality, it isn’t really very interesting.  When an image shows a version of what we see - a repsresentation of what is around us - then it becomes interesting.  That is photography for me.

My father was a keen photographer - I have a (brief) journal of his when he went on a multi-day ride with his father and his older sister (this is in the 1930s).  He was about 13, and he took his camera.  He was desperate to take a photo of Mt Ruapehu, in the middle of the North Island.  He took pictures all his life, and passed on that passion to me.  My first camera was a bellows rangefinder (I don’t recall what make - perhaps Kodak?).  He would put a sticking plaster on the back of the camera with sunny 16 settings.  We were only allowed black and white film, which we processed and printed ourselves in a dark room in the surgery.

I vividly recall the pleasure of seeing the print emerge, and the disappointment that I had not managed to capture what my mind’s eye had seen.  We didn’t have filters or understand luminance or spectral response.  The film was slow, and the choices limited - the importance of depth of field and shutter speed was initially of paramount importance, but composition and light became the things we concentrated on, and our images improved.

When I finally got an SLR (a Nikon), Kodachrome became my film of choice - in a weird way, the displine was very similar to black & white photography.

What I found, however, was that colour became a distracting composition element.  The images I liked the most were effectively mononchromatic (lugging a Hasselblad 503cx and tripod up a hill above Pokhara to catch the dawn light on Machapuchare in Nepal resulted in very satisfying images with only black, white and subtle shades of blue and gold).  The introduction of colour into an image created a complication I found hard to control.

I suppose what I’m getting at is that the choice isn’t really colour or black and white, so much as what you visualise.  Removing colour is a constraint, but like many constraints, it’s also liberating.  Photography isn’t about recording a scene - it’s about protraying a representation of a scene which strikes a chord for you.  I appreciate that I have come about this in reverse from the OP’s question, but the starting point for me is black and white as it forces me to think about composition (including blacks, white and tones in between) - colour introduces variables which distract, are harder to control and which often detract from the image.

Cheers
John

[Olaf_ZG]

@IkarusJohnvery nice written down, thanks.

[Olaf_ZG]

The images I like most (not only mine, but also others) are monochromatic images: either fully b/w or with little color.

However, with the Q, I capture color and then to me it is hard to translate this into monochromatic, especially with daily life where there are so many colors around: there is always one standing out and which complements to the final image.

To me, the SL is for color work, the M’a for b/w. The Q is in between and I am still wondering if I should have bought a Qm…

[ramarren]

Okay ... Just a litmus test. Which of the two following photographs "says more" to you? 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

... And please describe what you like and dislike in each.  

G

 

 

[Ouroboros]

I don’t think either version ‘says’ anything.  I don’t like the weird alternating cyan-magenta-cyan casts in the sky on the colour version that bleeds into the corners and the tree branches and the shadows in the grass due to the vignette, so I guess the mono version gets the nod but it’s lacking in contrast and rather too much dark foreground for my taste.

I’d concentrate on a black and white image to enhance the various textures and the building, which, as the point of focus, is rendered far better in black and white, if I was considering the scene.

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, ramarren said:

Okay ... Just a litmus test. Which of the two following photographs "says more" to you? 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

... And please describe what you like and dislike in each.  

G

 

 

Neither. And as images, although they are technically competent, I find both lacking in interest. Sorry for the negativity, but you asked.....

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Budfox]

For this scene, the monochrome gives a more isolationist feel that seems to work better.

[sometimesmaybe]

coming from this at a different angle

thought i'd process a colour image into a monochrome image

what i realised is that i shot this image with 1 key subject (Belle) and 2 supporting subjects (optimistic signage + brown brutalist apartments) in mind. in my view, the shades of brown makes the sign a tad ironic... it has a real 'double speak' dread about it

the monochrome image is gritty, but it feels just a tad less playful

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!