Die Mutter der Ur-Leica

[derleicaman]

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Reviving a discussion here on the LUF, about the actual exposure measuring device that Oskar Barnack developed in 1912. 

I was in Wetzlar October 19 through the 22nd for the COP (Celebration of Photography) and Oskar Barnack Awards. I was also on a mission to confirm that Article M875 was still in the Museum Archiv. This was an item handed down to Wilhelm Albert from Oskar Barnack, and was found in what was referred to as "der Barnackschrank" (Branack cabinet). Georg Mann did an article in the Vidom magazine #50 with detailed pictures of it back in the 90's.

After months of correspondence with Tim Pullmann of the Archiv at Leitz Park, and with the help of Ulf Richter, I was able to inspect in person item M875 and confirm its existence. 

Here is the email that Ulf sent me. "On page 12 in Barnack's "Werkstattbuch" he wrote by the date 20. April 1912 "App. zur Betrachtung des Bildes bei kinematograph. Aufnahmen." Maybe this is the apparat we look for. For exposure testing, one must set a Compur-shutter with a lens in the front opening. Difficult. We must look for the distance from the front opening to the film-plane." 

When looking at the actual M875, I would have to agree with Ulf that a Compur shutter lens would work best with this camera. Ambro51, Ray Morgenweck, who actually has built several replicas of M875 based on Georg Mann's article hopefully will chime in here.

I look forward to a renewed discussion here of this item, and ultimately will write an article for the Viewfinder.

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[Ambro51]

As the only person besides Barnack having actual experience in using the camera, I can assure you a Compur shutter is not needed.   •••••.  Here is an image exposed at ISO 6 using the same Zeiss f 3.5 5cm Kino Tessar that Oskar used.  The camera is mounted vertically, and the slide shutter is flicked upwards.  

 

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Edited November 9, 2022 by Ambro51

[willeica]

When we were in Wetzlar in 2018, George Furst had with him the gold/brass coloured camera in the photo below, which was taken at Oscar (sic) Barnack's grave. 

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This looks to me like the M875 shown above. I presume that this was made for George by Mr Kim in Korea, but Ray may know more about this. From what Ray says it seems that was like a gravity or guillotine shutter of some kind, but without speed adjustment it is difficult to see how this could function as an 'exposure test' camera, unless there was also some kind of aperture adjustment. Our mutual friend Roland Zwiers from the Netherlands has been looking at the films which were available around that time and I know that from things I have done with Vest Pocket Kodaks from around the 1915 period that film speeds were not really codified the way that they are today and were just plain 'slow' looking at the recommendations from Kodak etc. 

Most of the stuff that has been written about Compur shutters is in German, but this piece in English is the best available about the development of Compur type shutters 

https://www.fotohistoricum.dk/riess_wp/om-compur-d/abaut-compur-gb/

You will see reference in the early part of this to guillotine or drop board shutters which were around at least since the Brandt and Wild shutter of 1881, which resembles what Ray has described. You will also see that Zeiss had moved in to tie up the Compur type shutter, but, of course, Barnack must have had some ties with Zeiss. There were also the earlier Compound shutters and others still around. The mystery revolves around the function of the 'guillotine piece' and the round hole and also what speed adjustment was available. 

Finally, can anyone see any tie up in this with Barnack's large and heavy cine camera from c 1911 which is on display in the museum?

I'm just throwing all of this out there as a series of considerations, as I don't have any definitive answers about any of these matters.

William 

 

 

 

[derleicaman]

Indeed this is the quandry of M875. In its current form, one could consider it to be incomplete. There was no lens or anything else in the Archiv along with M875 that would have confirmed what lens Barnack used, and whether or not a Compur shutter was ever used. In examining M875 in the Archiv, we could see no way that the dark slide would function as a guillotine or "flick" type shutter. However, I think this is mainly due to M875 being 110 years old this year, and the slide may have been subject to corrosion and certainly suffering from disuse. I am not saying that M875 would not have worked in this way back in 1912 when Barnack built it. I understand from Ray that this is how he has gotten his replica to work, with a gravity or flick shutter. Ray also built the one that George Furst had with him in Wetzlar. Ray has done tremendous work on this without the benefit of having examined M875 itself, only going from the description from Georg Mann's article almost 30 years ago.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and Ray has gotten a number of good images using the apparat with a vertically travelling "flick" shutter using the same Kino Tessar lens that Barnack used. The other thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about a device used for testing film speed for a motion picture camera, which for normal (not slow or fast motion) uses a fixed frame rate. I believe this to be 24 frames per second. This takes shutter speed out of the equation, and indeed M875 has no means of setting a shutter speed as the Ur-Leica does. Another argument for the Ur-Leica not being used for testing film for the Cine camera

Also in examination of the pictures I took of M875, it still had the two film spools that Mann had in his article. Looking at the camera, one notices that it had an advance knob on the left side of the apparat as you look at it from the back. Only a short length of film needed to be used, say .3 m for emulsion testing. At most, you would be making three to five exposures. With the advance knob on the left, the film would move from right to left instead of left to right as in the Ur-Leica. Another thing to take into consideration is M875 was intended to be mounted vertically on the side of the Cine camera, with the film moving vertically as it does in the Cine camera, not horizontally as in the Ur or any other 35mm still camera.

I think we have to look at M875 with completely different set of eyes, not as we would for a 35mm still camera, such as the Ur. M875 was built for another purpose, more in line with the Cine camera. Remember, Barnack was hired on the recommendation of Mechau, who had worked with Barnack at Zeiss developing his Cine Camera. Mechau then went to work for Leitz on a Cine camera, and Mechau had Barnack hired at Leitz to help him work on this, the Cine camera, not a still camera. Development of the Ur came after M875, building on the form and ideas introduced with M875, but being used in a completely different application. Hence it's name, the Mother of the Ur.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by derleicaman

[derleicaman]

Here is photo of the book which had images from items in the Archiv, from items that Barnack had worked on. I only had a few moments to record this page along with M875 while in the Archiv in October. I will need to go back and spend more time with it. This page, which Ulf Richter showed me, had a description of M875 being in Barnack's "Schrank", along with a small B&W image of it.

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[willeica]

43 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

Indeed this is the quandry of M875. In its current form, one could consider it to be incomplete. There was no lens or anything else in the Archiv along with M875 that would have confirmed what lens Barnack used, and whether or not a Compur shutter was ever used. In examining M875 in the Archiv, we could see no way that the dark slide would function as a guillotine or "flick" type shutter. However, I think this is mainly due to M875 being 110 years old this year, and the slide may have been subject to corrosion and certainly suffering from disuse. I am not saying that M875 would not have worked in this way back in 1912 when Barnack built it. I understand from Ray that this is how he has gotten his replica to work, with a gravity or flick shutter. Ray also built the one that George Furst had with him in Wetzlar. Ray has done tremendous work on this without the benefit of having examined M875 itself, only going from the description from Georg Mann's article almost 30 years ago.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and Ray has gotten a number of good images using the apparat with a vertically travelling "flick" shutter using the same Kino Tessar lens that Barnack used. The other thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about a device used for testing film speed for a motion picture camera, which for normal (not slow or fast motion) uses a fixed frame rate. I believe this to be 24 frames per second. This takes shutter speed out of the equation, and indeed M875 has no means of setting a shutter speed as the Ur-Leica does. Another argument for the Ur-Leica not being used for testing film for the Cine camera

Also in examination of the pictures I took of M875, it still had the two film spools that Mann had in his article. Looking at the camera, one notices that it had an advance knob on the left side of the apparat as you look at it from the back. Only a short length of film needed to be used, say .3 m for emulsion testing. At most, you would be making three to five exposures. With the advance knob on the left, the film would move from right to left instead of left to right as in the Ur-Leica. Another thing to take into consideration is M875 was intended to be mounted vertically on the side of the Cine camera, with the film moving vertically as it does in the Cine camera, not horizontally as in the Ur or any other 35mm still camera.

I think we have to look at M875 with completely different set of eyes, not as we would for a 35mm still camera, such as the Ur. M875 was built for another purpose, more in line with the Cine camera. Remember, Barnack was hired on the recommendation of Mechau, who had worked with Barnack at Zeiss developing his Cine Camera. Mechau then went to work for Leitz on a Cine camera, and Mechau had Barnack hired at Leitz to help him work on this, the Cine camera, not a still camera. Development of the Ur came after M875, building on the form and ideas introduced with M875, but being used in a completely different application. Hence it's name, the Mother of the Ur.

 

Bill, this fits to a degree with what I said and George did mention Ray to me in 2018, but after over 4 years my memory is getting a little dim as he also mentioned Mr Kim a lot. To home in on the function of the camera you are right about frame rate rather than shutter speed being the critical element with cine, but do we know the type and sensitivity of the film stock being used and also how the results of the exposure tests might have been used? 

For what it is worth, this is the Brandt and Wilde shutter to which I referred. Actuation is by means of an air bulb it would seem, but a flick up method would rely on gravity on the way back down. How this would provide a reliable exposure is beyond me.

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William 

[derleicaman]

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20 minutes ago, willeica said:

Bill, this fits to a degree with what I said and George did mention Ray to me in 2018, but after over 4 years my memory is getting a little dim as he also mentioned Mr Kim a lot. To home in on the function of the camera you are right about frame rate rather than shutter speed being the critical element with cine, but do we know the type and sensitivity of the film stock being used and also how the results of the exposure tests might have been used? 

For what it is worth, this is the Brandt and Wilde shutter to which I referred. Actuation is by means of an air bulb it would seem, but a flick up method would rely on gravity on the way back down. How this would provide a reliable exposure is beyond me.

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William 

I think back at the turn of the 20th century, film sensitivity was measured in Germany in degrees Scheiner. I am not sure how this corresponds to the ISO system we use today. Not too long ago, we were dealing with DIN for Germany and ASA for the US. Ray talks about using film rated at 6 ISO in his experiments. This may well have been the relative film sensitivity back in those days.

As I said, we have to put ourselves in the mindset of Barnack and Mechau, coming up with a quick and dirty way to determine the relative speed of the cine film they were using in the Cine camera to get proper exposure, not as a means of making snapshots. It was a simple matter to make a couple of test shots, remove the film for quick developing, and then expose your movie film accordingly. The fact that the device in question could make reasonable snapshots was a bonus, and may well have led to the "A-ha" moment on Barnack's behalf to further develop this into what became the Ur. Of course, the Ur required much more than what M875 provided. Namely a variable shutter, a reliable film advance, an increase in the size of the format from 18 x 24 to 24 x 36 for a proper horizontal image, and a lens with variable f stops. The Ur provided all of this, and was all a follow on to what the simple exposure device that the M875 was.

[jaapv]

19 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

I am not sure how this corresponds to the ISO system

 

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[pgk]

11 hours ago, willeica said:

Finally, can anyone see any tie up in this with Barnack's large and heavy cine camera from c 1911 which is on display in the museum?

I think that Malcolm Taylor did some work on this camera in the past. He might just have some more information although it will require a telephone call to find out.

[Ambro51]

I’m glad this is being discussed again.  As to the slide, it’s fluididy of motion depends on all pieces being clean and polished.  The screws holding the barrel base must not “pinch” the slide.  The slide must not be bent, the area at the edge of the circle must not be bent.  It tha a very subtle concave curve, in that the center is the only part that actually touches.  (I could tinker with the original and in two minutes have it flicking). Oh....Gravity is an absolute constant, I did check the consistency by placing the camera touching the iPhone with the sound record feature going.....all seemed to be identical.   ••••. Did the lens interchange with the Cine camera, well, let someone there check.  It sure looks possible in these photos.  It depends how easily the complete lens cell withdraws from the Cine camera, and if it goes into M875 and clamps in with the thumbscrew. 

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[Ambro51]

OSecond photo 

 

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Edited November 10, 2022 by Ambro51

[willeica]

12 hours ago, derleicaman said:

I think back at the turn of the 20th century, film sensitivity was measured in Germany in degrees Scheiner. I am not sure how this corresponds to the ISO system we use today. Not too long ago, we were dealing with DIN for Germany and ASA for the US. Ray talks about using film rated at 6 ISO in his experiments. This may well have been the relative film sensitivity back in those days.

As I said, we have to put ourselves in the mindset of Barnack and Mechau, coming up with a quick and dirty way to determine the relative speed of the cine film they were using in the Cine camera to get proper exposure, not as a means of making snapshots. It was a simple matter to make a couple of test shots, remove the film for quick developing, and then expose your movie film accordingly. The fact that the device in question could make reasonable snapshots was a bonus, and may well have led to the "A-ha" moment on Barnack's behalf to further develop this into what became the Ur. Of course, the Ur required much more than what M875 provided. Namely a variable shutter, a reliable film advance, an increase in the size of the format from 18 x 24 to 24 x 36 for a proper horizontal image, and a lens with variable f stops. The Ur provided all of this, and was all a follow on to what the simple exposure device that the M875 was.

i had to grapple with Scheiner in doing my Swiss Photos article, but the film itself was just bulk Perutz Film with no rating. Perutz did, however, use Scheiner up to around WWII, even though DIN was around since 1934 at least. 

There is lots more here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/135_film

The important thing is that the concept of having a measurement scale for film speed was either non-existent or just very new. With contemporary (1910 -1915) Kodak literature you just followed the instructions in the Kodak leaflet and you had no idea what the film sensitivity was. In using a Vest Pocket Kodak I had to interpret the instructions from c 1915 to work with modern ISO 100 film.This entailed a lot more stopping down than was the case in the Kodak instructions. I worked out that film speed back then was much less than ISO 10, possibly 4, 6 or 8. 

Roland Zwiers is doing a Zoom on 27th November with the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain and I intend to catch it if I can. His topic will be 

'Early Leica photography in the period 1913-1926

An introduction to early Leica users and early Leica films'

 

I have told him about your interest in M875 and he may be in touch with you. The Zoom audience on 27th November will include people with knowledge about early films.

 

2 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

Oh....Gravity is an absolute constant

I agree, but friction could have been an issue😀 I think you have shown that this was not an issue with your replica. 

To the point of possible mounting on the cine camera, the M875 item is kept only yards away from the cine camera. Could Tim Pullmann ask one of his technicians to have a look at this?  The tech guys at the Leica Classic Store seem to report to Tim. I spoke to them in June, on Tim's recommendation, to show them the LHSA/LSI Archive which impressed them greatly. 

William

[pgk]

3 hours ago, willeica said:

To the point of possible mounting on the cine camera, the M875 item is kept only yards away from the cine camera. Could Tim Pullmann ask one of his technicians to have a look at this?  The tech guys at the Leica Classic Store seem to report to Tim. I spoke to them in June, on Tim's recommendation, to show them the LHSA/LSI Archive which impressed them greatly. 

If you read this: https://www.worldphotoadventure.com/in-conversation-with-malcolm-taylor/ you will see that Malcolm Taylor extensively rebuilt the cine camera and had to make parts to fit it where they were lost or missing. He may still have some 'insights'.

[derleicaman]

23 minutes ago, pgk said:

If you read this: https://www.worldphotoadventure.com/in-conversation-with-malcolm-taylor/ you will see that Malcolm Taylor extensively rebuilt the cine camera and had to make parts to fit it where they were lost or missing. He may still have some 'insights'.

I think this would be very helpful. Someone else suggested this, but that he could only be reached by phone. Would anyone like to volunteer to do this? Perhaps we could all come up with a list of questions to ask him?

[willeica]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

If you read this: https://www.worldphotoadventure.com/in-conversation-with-malcolm-taylor/ you will see that Malcolm Taylor extensively rebuilt the cine camera and had to make parts to fit it where they were lost or missing. He may still have some 'insights'.

That is the photo which I remember, Paul. I mentioned Brighton Beach when I showed my photo above of the cine camera at the Annual Conference of the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain in Poole, Dorset,  but I could not remember where the article was published.

The cine camera now resides in the Ernst Leitz Museum in Wetzlar; my photo above was taken on the opening day. If you want local expertise in Wetzlar on this, Ottmar Michaely might also be an option. Malcolm may recall working on the camera, but he would not have current access to it. Still, it might be worthwhile putting some questions to him. i can ask around to see who is currently in communication with him.

 

William 

 

[derleicaman]

Doing a little research on Frames per Second at the time Mechau and Barnack were working on this project, I came upon this interesting and informative video.

https://www.filmsfatale.com/blog/2020/5/14/film-history-frames-per-second

Back in those early days, both the camera and the projector were hand-cranked, with the target being 16 FPS, although this would vary depending upon the operator in question, of course.

[derleicaman]

6 minutes ago, willeica said:

That is the photo which I remember, Paul. I mentioned Brighton Beach when I showed my photo above of the cine camera at the Annual Conference of the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain in Poole, Dorset,  but I could not remember where the article was published.

The cine camera now resides in the Ernst Leitz Museum in Wetzlar; my photo above was taken on the opening day. If you want local expertise in Wetzlar on this, Ottmar Michaely might also be an option. Malcolm may recall working on the camera, but he would not have current access to it. Still, it might be worthwhile putting some questions to him. i can ask around to see who is currently in communication with him.

 

William 

 

William, my thoughts were in parallel to yours. I also think contacting Ottmar would be a good idea, which I can certainly do. He is working with the Leitz Auction Team, so he should have ready access to the Cine camera and M875. I will contact Ulf Richter as well.

BTW, I also sat with PH van Hasbroeck at the banquet for the Oskar Barnack awards, and have his contact information as well. I had mentioned to him that I was looking to see M875 in the Archiv. He may have something to add as well. I will also reach out to Oscar Fricke to see what Rolf may have in his files.

[willeica]

5 hours ago, derleicaman said:

William, my thoughts were in parallel to yours. I also think contacting Ottmar would be a good idea, which I can certainly do. He is working with the Leitz Auction Team, so he should have ready access to the Cine camera and M875. I will contact Ulf Richter as well.

BTW, I also sat with PH van Hasbroeck at the banquet for the Oskar Barnack awards, and have his contact information as well. I had mentioned to him that I was looking to see M875 in the Archiv. He may have something to add as well. I will also reach out to Oscar Fricke to see what Rolf may have in his files.

I have Paul Henry's email. He has a detailed description of how the cine camera worked on page 10 of his book, but no reference to exposure testing. He talks about 16 FPS from two turns per sec on the handle.  I'll also ask around about how active Malcolm is these days. Ottmar has sold his repair gear to the Leitz guys, but he is also involved with training their young techs. My suggestion is to get Tim to talk to Ottmar about looking at M875 and the cine camera together.

William 

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[willeica]

16 hours ago, derleicaman said:

William, my thoughts were in parallel to yours. I also think contacting Ottmar would be a good idea, which I can certainly do. He is working with the Leitz Auction Team, so he should have ready access to the Cine camera and M875. I will contact Ulf Richter as well.

BTW, I also sat with PH van Hasbroeck at the banquet for the Oskar Barnack awards, and have his contact information as well. I had mentioned to him that I was looking to see M875 in the Archiv. He may have something to add as well. I will also reach out to Oscar Fricke to see what Rolf may have in his files.

Bill, Paul (pgk) has reached out to Malcolm Taylor and he is happy to talk to you. I have sent Malcolm's contact details to you by email. Malcolm made an interesting analogy between the shape of M875 and the shape of the Kodak Autographic (VPK) , something I speculated on before in one of my articles for Macfilos - see photo below.

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William 

Edited November 11, 2022 by willeica

[Ambro51]

Here is the lens. Now......I will tell you something that will Amaze you.....I have 2 working UR Leicas, one modified by Mr Kim, the second, I done myself.   When I got the Kino Tessar in, I removed the lens from my UR, and the Kino Tessar threaded Right In!   Pushing the inner barrel in, but leaving the outer barrel extended.....the Kino Tessar was in Perfect focal registry!  Also, the outer barrel itself extends 14mm....which leads me th believe the 64mm Mikro Summar Would Also thread right into the UR.  So now, it is Very Probable the UR was designed as an interchangeable lens camera....42, 50 and 64mm lenses.

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Edited November 11, 2022 by Ambro51