Die Mutter der Ur-Leica

[Mike Eckman]

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On 11/5/2022 at 12:23 PM, derleicaman said:

Reviving a discussion here on the LUF, about the actual exposure measuring device that Oskar Barnack developed in 1912. 

I was in Wetzlar October 19 through the 22nd for the COP (Celebration of Photography) and Oskar Barnack Awards. I was also on a mission to confirm that Article M875 was still in the Museum Archiv. This was an item handed down to Wilhelm Albert from Oskar Barnack, and was found in what was referred to as "der Barnackschrank" (Branack cabinet). Georg Mann did an article in the Vidom magazine #50 with detailed pictures of it back in the 90's.

After months of correspondence with Tim Pullmann of the Archiv at Leitz Park, and with the help of Ulf Richter, I was able to inspect in person item M875 and confirm its existence. 

Here is the email that Ulf sent me. "On page 12 in Barnack's "Werkstattbuch" he wrote by the date 20. April 1912 "App. zur Betrachtung des Bildes bei kinematograph. Aufnahmen." Maybe this is the apparat we look for. For exposure testing, one must set a Compur-shutter with a lens in the front opening. Difficult. We must look for the distance from the front opening to the film-plane." 

When looking at the actual M875, I would have to agree with Ulf that a Compur shutter lens would work best with this camera. Ambro51, Ray Morgenweck, who actually has built several replicas of M875 based on Georg Mann's article hopefully will chime in here.

I look forward to a renewed discussion here of this item, and ultimately will write an article for the Viewfinder.

 

Hi, my name is Mike Eckman and on my site, https://mikeeckman.com I am working on an article about Leica M 875.  I have had the pleasure of handling Ray's (Ambo51) M875 replica but I would like to use your images of the actual thing that you posted above in this thread.

My site is non-profit and I make no money off these articles, I just want to share information with people.  I will give you full credit for the images.  

Please let me know if I may use the images and how you'd like to be credited.

-Mike

 

[Ambro5I]

https://mikeeckman.com/2022/12/oskar-barnacks-first-leica/  The Article on M875, the Barnack Exposure Tester Camera, and my Replica, is now online!  Read and Enjoy!

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Edited December 22, 2022 by Ambro5I

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[willeica]

14 hours ago, Ambro5I said:

https://mikeeckman.com/2022/12/oskar-barnacks-first-leica/  The Article on M875, the Barnack Exposure Tester Camera, and my Replica, is now online!  Read and Enjoy!

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Well done, Mike and Ray. Just one small point before I post some material. Van Hasbroeck did not refer to Nagel, but to Barnack himself. This may, however, be a 'Freudian Slip' as August Nagel was very important in the development of 35mm film with his non reloadable cassette for Kodak and development of the Retina. I am a great admirer of Nagel and feel that he should be up there on the pantheon with Barnack. 

Below are the pages from a chapter in a longer piece by Heinz Richter in the Barnack and Berek Newsletter of October-December 1979. Ray and Mike may have seen this already, but it shows that M875 was know before Georg Mann's article of May 1992 in VIDOM. The second page deals with that device. Later in the article there appears to be some confusion and conflation between a second prototype and the 0 Series No 105 which was sold for a world record sum recently. Indeed some of the information contained here has been overtaken by later discoveries, but that does not mean that overall this is not valuable.

Scan 78.pdf

Scan 79.pdf

Scan 80.pdf

Scan 81.pdf

Scan 82.pdf

Scan 83.pdf

Scan 84.pdf

Scan 85.pdf

Scan 86.pdf

Scan 87.pdf

Scan 88.pdf

Scan 89.pdf

Scan 90.pdf

Scan 91.pdf

One of the gems in this is Barnack's letter refusing the first offer of employment from Leitz. This was related to his health. It is well known that Barnack suffered from bad health throughout his entire life. 

William 

Edited December 22, 2022 by willeica

[Ambro5I]

Thanks for the nice words on the article, I agree Mike done a splendid job.  Also, it’s nice to see the reference to M875 on page two.  It confirms my suspicion he had used the CZJ Kino Tessar.  Later, also reference is made to the trial usage of the 64mm Summar.  This confirms my findings in that the extended barrel of the UR holds the 64mm in position for use.   •••. The level of knowledge is increasing on this very early Leica ancestor.    •••••. Now, we need to find some type of circular image or negative created by Barnack.  •••••  the article explains HOW the device was used, it also raises my suspicion the device attached vertically directly to the left side of the Cine camera. The reliable “flick shutter “ gives the 1/40 Speed.   The base of M875 has a very intricate recessed attachment screw, also a 3/8 tripod screw, the base is made flat.   

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Edited December 22, 2022 by Ambro5I

[derleicaman]

Well done, Mike! I will explore your article in depth. I am in contact with Heinz Richter and have many back issues of the B&B Newsletter, but I don't remember this one. This confirms many of the ideas and assumptions I have had about M875. I plan on writing a Viewfinder article on M875 in the future. Ray, I will be in contact with you on this. I also plan on speaking to van Hasbroeck and Malcolm Taylor as well, hopefully over the holidays as I have some time off.

Again, wonderful work!

[willeica]

2 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Well done, Mike! I will explore your article in depth. I am in contact with Heinz Richter and have many back issues of the B&B Newsletter, but I don't remember this one. This confirms many of the ideas and assumptions I have had about M875. I plan on writing a Viewfinder article on M875 in the future. Ray, I will be in contact with you on this. I also plan on speaking to van Hasbroeck and Malcolm Taylor as well, hopefully over the holidays as I have some time off.

Again, wonderful work!

I'm also sending this to Jim Lager for his comments. I will make sure that you are copied on this. Jim likes what he has already seen.

William 

[willeica]

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5 hours ago, willeica said:

One of the gems in this is Barnack's letter refusing the first offer of employment from Leitz. This was related to his health. It is well known that Barnack suffered from bad health throughout his entire life. 

 

If Ernst Leitz had not pressed Barnack to join, we could have been talking about a 'Zeica' rather than a 'Leica'.

William 

[Mike Eckman]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:14 AM, willeica said:

Well done, Mike and Ray. Just one small point before I post some material. Van Hasbroeck did not refer to Nagel, but to Barnack himself. This may, however, be a 'Freudian Slip' as August Nagel was very important in the development of 35mm film with his non reloadable cassette for Kodak and development of the Retina. I am a great admirer of Nagel and feel that he should be up there on the pantheon with Barnack. 

Thanks for the catch!  I swear, I proofread this thing a dozen times before hitting the publish button and I didn't catch that.  I have no idea why I typed "Nagel" when I meant "Barnack".  I even correctly said Barnack in the very next sentence.  I have made the correction.  If you still see the word Nagel on your screen, you need to flush your web browser's cache.

Regarding all this other info, including the references to M875 from before Mann's VIDOM article, this is immensely fascinating!

I had always imagined I would do a follow up to this article at some point to include new updates that come to light in the future.

Rather than keep making addendums to the original article (with the exception of actual errors of course), I'll wait until we have a bunch of new stuff to report on and I'll create an all new follow up post with the great info you've included here, plus whatever comes to light in the future.

I appreciate everyone's feedback here, and of course owe my ability to do this to Ray!  I've said it a bunch of times already, but thanks Ray!

[Mike Eckman]

On 12/22/2022 at 2:11 PM, willeica said:

I'm also sending this to Jim Lager for his comments. I will make sure that you are copied on this. Jim likes what he has already seen.

William 

I would love to hear Jim's thoughts on this.  I had worked with him immensely on a previous article I did on wartime Leicas.  He even sent me a copy of his "Wehrmacht Leica" book, which is what I named the article after.

Here is a link to that in case any of you haven't seen it:

https://mikeeckman.com/2019/01/wehrmacht-leica/

[willeica]

4 hours ago, Mike Eckman said:

Thanks for the catch!  I swear, I proofread this thing a dozen times before hitting the publish button and I didn't catch that.  I have no idea why I typed "Nagel" when I meant "Barnack".  I even correctly said Barnack in the very next sentence.  I have made the correction.  If you still see the word Nagel on your screen, you need to flush your web browser's cache.

Regarding all this other info, including the references to M875 from before Mann's VIDOM article, this is immensely fascinating!

I had always imagined I would do a follow up to this article at some point to include new updates that come to light in the future.

Rather than keep making addendums to the original article (with the exception of actual errors of course), I'll wait until we have a bunch of new stuff to report on and I'll create an all new follow up post with the great info you've included here, plus whatever comes to light in the future.

I appreciate everyone's feedback here, and of course owe my ability to do this to Ray!  I've said it a bunch of times already, but thanks Ray!

Personally, I am delighted to see Nagels's name here, even if it is in error. He deserves a lot more attention than he gets, even from people in 'Leicaland'. The development of the non-reusable cassette for Kodak would have helped all 35mm camera manufacturers, including Leica. The FILCA system was introduced by Leica as film manufacturers could not fill the gap in the mid 1920s. 

I sent a link to your M875 article to Jim Lager and will get back to him about his views. I may be in Wetzlar once or twice next year and I will definitely ask to see it. Jim Lager and Bill Rosauer (derleicaman) may be with me on the second occasion. 

I believe that Barnack constructed a device for testing exposures on 35mm film samples. The real question is when did he do this ? 1912/13 seems the most obvious time, but what evidence do we have for that? The key may lie in the M875 name. There is a book, entirely in German , by Helmut Lagler of the German Historical Society which identifies which Leitz staff members worked on what projects and patents. They have this book in the shop at the Ernst Leitz Museum. Despite my lack of German, I have been tempted to buy a copy. 

Another person to talk to is Lars Netopil, who can, of course, speak German.

4 hours ago, Mike Eckman said:

I would love to hear Jim's thoughts on this.  I had worked with him immensely on a previous article I did on wartime Leicas.  He even sent me a copy of his "Wehrmacht Leica" book, which is what I named the article after.

Here is a link to that in case any of you haven't seen it:

https://mikeeckman.com/2019/01/wehrmacht-leica/

Your article is excellent. There is a book of WWII period military Leicas, listed by serial number, which was produced by Dr Luigi Cane for the German Historical Society, with assistance from Lars Netopil. I have a copy of that book. Lars has told me that if a camera is on that list it is definitely a wartime military camera. However, he does not preclude the possibility of other cameras, not listed, being genuine military items. He has said to me that other supporting evidence would be needed. I was told some years ago by the Leica Archives that a grey IIIc in my collection had been distributed to the Luftwaffe, but, having discussed it with Jim Lager, we both concluded that it was not a military camera. So, care is needed in researching such matters.

William 

[Ambro5I]

Bill had sent me a copy of Barnacks workbook entry eith the exact date “micro cinema apparatus” was ready for recording,   Thats M875s date of creation.  Bill will have to “re-provide” the exact details as I have lost some of my files.   It IS interesting to see M875 was used to take a series of sample images using the photographers “best guess” of f stop.  Then, the whole movie was shot as that best guess stop.  The film from M875 was developed, I suppose by the same “best guess”, and the actual development of the cinema roll adjusted based on the results of the test strip.  Very efficient, very logical.  .>>>>>. The moment Barnack first held M875 “up to his eye”, ......he held onto the first Leica.....

Edited December 27, 2022 by Ambro5I

[pgk]

10 minutes ago, Ambro5I said:

The film from M875 was developed, I suppose by the same “best guess”, and the actual development of the cinema roll adjusted based on the results of the test strip.  Very efficient, very logical.  

'Clip' testing processing was available from some central London pro processing labs back in the 1980s. A few test shots on a short roll were processed so that adjustments could be made as required. Not dis-similar in a way.

[Ambro5I]

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[George Furst]

In 2018 when I went to the 50 anniversary of the International Leica Society (LHSA) I asked about this M875 prototype and why it is not listed as being made by Barnack, they stated that there is no record of it being made in the Barnack notebooks. Therefor they claimed with our this record they cannot state that he made it as the film exposure camera that is referred to in Barnack documents. Unfortunately I do not remember who the “they” was and did not write it down in my notes of the meeting. The above photographs were taken during the above 50 year meeting in Wetzlar. I remember we had a hard time finding the Oskar Barnack grave site, and fortunately found it before darkness overcame us. 
 

Related to this, I have a copy that Ray (Ambro51) made for me as a token of thanks for having Mr Kim make a working copy of the UR Leica using the Nachbitdung der Ur-Leica built by aspiring mahanics at the Leitz, Wetzlar manufacturing plant as a graduation project in the 1970s. I still have this test camera and am now thinking of running film through it as my guitar playing and singing in a local Live Cafe here in Daejeon have consumed me. What I know is that it is not an easy camera to use and the guilitine  shutter sometimes hangs up on me. That being said, it is a fine replica of the original and Ray is commended to have made two, one for himself and the other for me. He is certainly an excellent mechanic of the Earnest Leitz tradition!

I do have one question, in which Viewfinder is the article on the making of the replica UR found? I wish to make a copy for Mr Kim as I think he is holding up the repair of a camera until I provide him with a copy! I should have written the article but twice my computer crashed and I lost the article and never went on to try writing it again and moved on to other things. I am now 80 years old and have a number of projects including leading the Daejeon Hikers, a regional hiking society with hikes every Sunday. We are on Facebook, so look us up as “Daejeon Hiker”. You will see me there!

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[thrid]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:23 AM, Ambro5I said:

Thanks for the nice words on the article, I agree Mike done a splendid job.  Also, it’s nice to see the reference to M875 on page two.  It confirms my suspicion he had used the CZJ Kino Tessar.  Later, also reference is made to the trial usage of the 64mm Summar.  This confirms my findings in that the extended barrel of the UR holds the 64mm in position for use.   •••. The level of knowledge is increasing on this very early Leica ancestor.    •••••. Now, we need to find some type of circular image or negative created by Barnack.  •••••  the article explains HOW the device was used, it also raises my suspicion the device attached vertically directly to the left side of the Cine camera. The reliable “flick shutter “ gives the 1/40 Speed.   The base of M875 has a very intricate recessed attachment screw, also a 3/8 tripod screw, the base is made flat.   

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The standard exposure time for shooting a movie at 24 fps is 1/48th second with a 360 degree shutter.
If silent movies were shot at 16-18 fps then the shutter speed would be 1/32nd or 1/36th second....


https://www.filmsfatale.com/blog/2020/5/14/film-history-frames-per-second

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by thrid

[M9reno]

It is notable that both Heinz and, later, Ulf Richter (in his book Oskar Barnack - Von der Idee zur Leica (2009), later translated into English by LHSA) speak about M875 as such.  It seems that both authors hypothesised the existence of an exposure device for movie film that was different from the Ur-Leica, but neither author knew of the existence of M875 as that device.

[Roland Zwiers]

Good afternoon from the Netherlands,

My name is Roland Zwiers and I am studying the bottlenecks of early Leica photography, especially in the period 1910-1927.

One early bottleneck was the quality of the available 35mm cine negative film.

On this subject I have already written articles in Viewfinder and The Leica Society magazine.

Other articles in the pipeline are about early Leica cameras, lenses, and on the very origins of the Leica itself.

This brings me to Oskar Barnack's exposure tester and so to this forum.

 

I infer that the exposure tester dates from the second half of 1912.

Its design (and that of the later Ur-Leica) is clearly inspired on the VP Kodak that was introduced in early 1912.

The exposure tester is not mentioned in Oskar Barnack's Werkstattbuch.

The many references to 'MikroKino' have nothing to do with the exposure tester.

MikroKino refers to 'Mikrokinematographie', that is the combination between a microscope and a 35mm movie camera.

In German literature one can find instances of this innovative combination from 1908 onwards.

Oskar Barnack was working on the infrastructure to make this combination possible: the microscope itself, the miniature ('Liliput') arc lamps, the stable set-up (Mikrokino-Gestell), an apparatus for viewing the image while filming.  One should not confuse elements from this infrastructure with the exposure tester function.

 

What was the reason for the exposure tester? around 1910 there were many good exposure testers on the market.

Some used optical means (grey-wedge). some used chemical means (based on the discolouring of photopaper after exposure).

Some were based on exposure tables: in July/at 12 o'clock/ in bright sunlight/ at the beach/at aperture 8/ without a filter/ one can use shutter speed 1/100.

And so on.

So why did Oskar Barnack have to invest his own exposure tester?    

Around 1910 Eastman Kodak film was arlready very reliable, also between batches. So if Oskar Barnack used Kodak cine negative film,  he could have settled for a good exposure meter on the market.

So why did he still feel the need to create something new?

I can think of a few reasons.

He did not use Eastman Kodak film but other makes. After 1910 more and more competitors entered the lucrative 35mm market, but the production quality was usually not as good as that of Eastman Kodak. But even more significant: production quality and film speed was not uniform between batches. This may already have been an important reason for the 1912 exposure tester.

A second reason may have been that oskar Barnack experimented with self-sensitising regular colour-blind cine negative film.

By bathing a colour blind film in an Eosine solution (or similar sensitisers)  the film would be sensitive to the colours green, yellow and orange as well.   

But this lasted only a few days. And the consequences in terms of film speed must have varied between makes and batches. The only way to deal with this was to use the same film in an exposure tester.

In my opinion a suitable exposure tester had to meet only a few conditions:

ONE the same 35mm film as used in the movie camera (perforation not absolutely necessary for the test strip itself)

TWO a shutter speed  of about 1/40 sec in accordance with the effective shutter speed of the movie camera

THREE a lens mount that would accept the lens of the movie camera, say the 3.5/50 Kino-Tessar

 

As far as I can see the exposure tester M875 as described by Georg Mann meets these threecriteria.

That the gravitational shutter would have become unsuitable after a while, is besides the point.

That may very well have inspired Oskar barnack to embark on follow-up projects: the Photo Kamera of 1913 and the Ur-Leica of 1914!