M10-R colors, APO 35mm and some thoughts

[knopfler1976]

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For almost 9 years I was a single-body-single-lens guy, shooting predominantly Noctilux f/0.95 on M9. Over the past 2.5 years due to a series of events, I evolved to the current situation of owning 3 bodies and 3 lenses that fall into 3 distinct sets.

1. M9 + Noctilux 50mm f/0.95 ASPH
2. M-A + Summilux 28mm f/1.4 ASPH
3. M10-R BP + APO-Summicron 35mm f/2 ASPH

These days I choose which set to go out or travel with depending on the context. This past weekend looking at the photos taken across different combinations brought me a lot of thoughts. I decided to write down my experiences, in which I also talked a bit about my feelings about the colors producible by M10-R (spoiler alert: nothing surprising) as well as APO 35mm, and how the two work together.

https://jmyang.co/?p=1587

It's a very personal story so definitely far from being a review, but in the past I've found this kind of personal story by other Leica users very helpful with some of my decisions. I would therefore like to share it here. 

Feedbacks are of course welcome as always. Happy shooting!

Jerry

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[M Street Photographer]

Thank you for your article and thoughts on the homepage. A homage, even a declaration of love that spoke to my soul.

In many of her thoughts I found my experience and my way again.
I also photographed with the M9 for many years. One of the reasons for purchasing it was the coloring and the jpegs, especially the B&W, from the camera.

Then the curse of sensor corrosion overtook me too. So I sent the camera to Wetzlar (it was still the time of the free exchange) and was happy to have my M9 back after 10 days.

I immediately had to get some shots out, but oh my, what I saw on the screen wasn't the colors I was looking for. After a conversation with the support in Wetzlar, it was initially said that this cannot be. Then I should send in some RAW's, if possible the same shots with the old and the exchanged sensor.
A few days later I received a call from Wetzlar confirming my criticism. Reasoned with the changed firmware of the new sensor.
My disappointment was so great that I parted with the M9 and sold all the lenses. Now a long way began via different camera manufacturers, various lenses, which in the end never made me happy.
Again and again the desire for a rangefinder camera came up and so I looked around again at Leica, researched on the internet, tested a few and so much in the end my choice was the M 10 R! The M11 was just too clinical for me, digital, I don't need 60 MP either (an experience I gained with the Sony A7 RIV).

For me, the M10 R is the legitimate successor to the M9. I've only had the camera for a few months now and I'm still getting to know it. But as far as the coloring and the jpeg from the camera are concerned, my feeling that the decision was right is strengthened. I'm home again, have what I've repressed and suppressed for years.
I no longer have to torment myself with tons of buttons, wheels and complicated menus. I am very relieved.

The only thing I haven't found yet is a lens selection. Now I use the VC 50 1.0 (which was already there before the M) and bought a Summirat 35 2.4 at a reasonable price. I also adapt some old lenses, especially for B&W.

I've spent a lot of money this year, so lenses won't be possible until next year. Your comments on the APO-Summicron 35mm f/2.0 ASPH are very insightful and I will test it out and compare it to the new "old" 35 1.4 that is being advertised with the new M6.

I would very much like to see an exchange here, also from other photo friends. Above all reflections, thoughts and emotions, beyond technical details. What touches us is of course based on technical principles, but what we feel beyond that requires a different approach. It also feels good that I am not alone with my views and feelings.

[knopfler1976]

1 hour ago, M Street Photographer said:

Thank you for your article and thoughts on the homepage. A homage, even a declaration of love that spoke to my soul.

In many of her thoughts I found my experience and my way again.
I also photographed with the M9 for many years. One of the reasons for purchasing it was the coloring and the jpegs, especially the B&W, from the camera.

Then the curse of sensor corrosion overtook me too. So I sent the camera to Wetzlar (it was still the time of the free exchange) and was happy to have my M9 back after 10 days.

I immediately had to get some shots out, but oh my, what I saw on the screen wasn't the colors I was looking for. After a conversation with the support in Wetzlar, it was initially said that this cannot be. Then I should send in some RAW's, if possible the same shots with the old and the exchanged sensor.
A few days later I received a call from Wetzlar confirming my criticism. Reasoned with the changed firmware of the new sensor.
My disappointment was so great that I parted with the M9 and sold all the lenses. Now a long way began via different camera manufacturers, various lenses, which in the end never made me happy.
Again and again the desire for a rangefinder camera came up and so I looked around again at Leica, researched on the internet, tested a few and so much in the end my choice was the M 10 R! The M11 was just too clinical for me, digital, I don't need 60 MP either (an experience I gained with the Sony A7 RIV).

For me, the M10 R is the legitimate successor to the M9. I've only had the camera for a few months now and I'm still getting to know it. But as far as the coloring and the jpeg from the camera are concerned, my feeling that the decision was right is strengthened. I'm home again, have what I've repressed and suppressed for years.
I no longer have to torment myself with tons of buttons, wheels and complicated menus. I am very relieved.

The only thing I haven't found yet is a lens selection. Now I use the VC 50 1.0 (which was already there before the M) and bought a Summirat 35 2.4 at a reasonable price. I also adapt some old lenses, especially for B&W.

I've spent a lot of money this year, so lenses won't be possible until next year. Your comments on the APO-Summicron 35mm f/2.0 ASPH are very insightful and I will test it out and compare it to the new "old" 35 1.4 that is being advertised with the new M6.

I would very much like to see an exchange here, also from other photo friends. Above all reflections, thoughts and emotions, beyond technical details. What touches us is of course based on technical principles, but what we feel beyond that requires a different approach. It also feels good that I am not alone with my views and feelings.

Thanks for sharing! Great to meet someone who went through the M9 => M10-R journey (while skipping all models in between). Now that my M9 CCD mystery was resolved, I am actually happy with the color of the new CCD. The red was less prominent than before and over all the image pop is still there. Yes, it's different from the old one, but given that it's almost an "extra" to me now after losing it for many years, I feel very grateful.

BTW, I did some extra tests on my Noctilux of an older B+W 8x ND filter (103) I owned before buying the Leica 16x ND filter, and found that there's a slight color shift as well, though bluish in this case. My newly purchased $90 B+W 64x ND filter (806) seems to be neutral. I don't know whether the old B+W just aged over time like the Leica or the tint was so slight that I didn't detect it back then. I just ordered another B+W 8x ND (803). Will test it out once it arrives and share here in this thread.

APO 35mm to me is very unique since I actually owned a 35mm Summicron ASPH 11 years ago. It was my first lens. It was good but I fell in love with Noctilux and sold it soon after I moved to Paris in 2012. Initially I did not believe that APO 35mm would be that much better than Summicron 35mm ASPH. But the first picture coming out of M9 with APO 35mm overwhelmed me -- it's definitely different, especially the bokeh fall off.  And since then it's just one surprise after another. The macro simulation is also very fun. Can't get old with that.

That said, I never tried Summilux 35mm so wouldn't know how they compare. Note that the new Summilux has a min focus distance of 40cm instead of 30cm of APO 35mm. If you are buying it (also) for macro simulation, this would make quite some difference. Probably want to factor this in too. But if you don't care about macro sim then that's okay I guess.

Anyway, thanks for sharing again. Looking forward to seeing your photos with new lenses!

Jerry

 

[jakontil]

As much as i love the M11, finally i resigned to make way back to my M10r bp, it’s the most beautiful M to date with a baseplate 😂

thanks for writing such story, my noctilux 0.95 is my go to for some years, but finally switching to 1.2 for its classical looks, but you r so right, thorsten made us believe the 0.95 is a great go to lens, dont mind the size and hefts

I miss the chance to get the 28 summilux, one of few lenses i never tried, and now I’m thinking the apo with close focus, thanks to your words

[knopfler1976]

7 hours ago, jakontil said:

As much as i love the M11, finally i resigned to make way back to my M10r bp, it’s the most beautiful M to date with a baseplate 😂

thanks for writing such story, my noctilux 0.95 is my go to for some years, but finally switching to 1.2 for its classical looks, but you r so right, thorsten made us believe the 0.95 is a great go to lens, dont mind the size and hefts

I miss the chance to get the 28 summilux, one of few lenses i never tried, and now I’m thinking the apo with close focus, thanks to your words

Hi, thanks for sharing. It's interesting to see how a M11 owner like you would want to go "back" to M10-R BP. 🤣🤣🤣 I thought Noctilux f/1.2 would be too soft for even M9. How do you find it on M11? My 0.95 is gonna stay with M9 where it's the most comfortable. I guess that Leica might be working on a new Noctilux that could handle 60MP but I can't imagine whether it's optically possible nor the potential price tag. 

Summilux 28mm ASPH is really underrated. Having owned a Q2 for a few weeks, I do not agree that with Q2 you "get a Summilux 28mm ASPH for free". These two lenses are very different and I prefer the M one much more than the Q one.

The attached photo is an example. You see that even at a medium focus distance (probably 5m?) with a wide-angle 28mm, Summilux 28mm ASPH still conveys a 3D look. Q2 could produce out-of-focus bokeh in this case but the fall-off (along the distance) is less graceful. The M just looks a lot more real and cinematic to my eyes. 

Obviously everyone's preference is different. I have way more friends who swear by Q2 than M in terms of 28mm. It does feel good to be on the contrarian side of this debate though.

Cheers

Jerry

 

 

 

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[jakontil]

3 minutes ago, knopfler1976 said:

Hi, thanks for sharing. It's interesting to see how a M11 owner like you would want to go "back" to M10-R BP. 🤣🤣🤣 I thought Noctilux f/1.2 would be too soft for even M9. How do you find it on M11? My 0.95 is gonna stay with M9 where it's the most comfortable. I guess that Leica might be working on a new Noctilux that could handle 60MP but I can't imagine whether it's optically possible nor the potential price tag. 

Summilux 28mm ASPH is really underrated. Having owned a Q2 for a few weeks, I do not agree that with Q2 you "get a Summilux 28mm ASPH for free". These two lenses are very different and I prefer the M one much more than the Q one.

The attached photo is an example. You see that even at a medium focus distance (probably 5m?) with a wide-angle 28mm, Summilux 28mm ASPH still conveys a 3D look. Q2 could produce out-of-focus bokeh in this case but the fall-off (along the distance) is less graceful. The M just looks a lot more real and cinematic to my eyes. 

Obviously everyone's preference is different. I have way more friends who swear by Q2 than M in terms of 28mm. It does feel good to be on the contrarian side of this debate though.

Cheers

Jerry

 

 

 

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Well may be we see M10r BP in the same point of view, though giving up M11 wasn’t an easy decision but i have to make up my mind

dont get me wrong, it is a spectacular M, i use it very much during the short spell and really enjoy it, but the bond isnt that strong

the 1.2 under certain shooting conditions quite producing the kind of photos i love, may be trying to avoid backlighting, while using the 1.2 i dont miss my 0.95 on the street very much though occasionally i miss that thin dof of the 0.95 and knowing it is sharp enough and i only use the latter in professional shoot which demands accuracy and perfection something you can predict

obviously sharper than 1.2 but that’s not always the looks we looking for, may be after reading your story, the itch to mount back the 0.95 to the street have grown!

and regarding to 28mm summilux compare to Q, i very much agreed with you, i used to always have the Q’s since its release and a few of its special editions, love it and treating it like m with a 28mm, last until Q2 when suddenly i feel im missing something if i shot the M, sold it, bought 28 summaron and never look back

up till that point, only the frame that matters most to me and the experience with M is im being biased towards, still believeing, Q was just an M with 28 summilux

but not until today, this very post you pointed out how different the Q and the 28 summilux on M could be.. the missing dimensional, the out of focus and the fall off.. 

that reminds me the different between the 1.2 and the 0.95 too, and the former when stop down a bit, it’s a different lens  

thanks for sharing, little knowledge but impactful 

[Jeff S]

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4 hours ago, knopfler1976 said:

 I guess that Leica might be working on a new Noctilux that could handle 60MP but I can't imagine whether it's optically possible nor the potential price tag. 

 

 

 

 

Any Leica lens can work fine on a 60MP camera. See the Appendix at the end of the linked article by Roger…

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/
 

Jeff

[M Street Photographer]

The only question is to what extent an "old" lens can exhaust the sensor. Or whether losses are to be expected.
The acceptance then is left to each individual.

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, M Street Photographer said:

The only question is to what extent an "old" lens can exhaust the sensor. Or whether losses are to be expected.
The acceptance then is left to each individual.

Exhaust the sensor?  The above link is again  suggested.

Jeff

[Chimichurri]

5 hours ago, knopfler1976 said:

I guess that Leica might be working on a new Noctilux that could handle 60MP but I can't imagine whether it's optically possible nor the potential price tag. 

Personally I found this “able to resolve the sensor” is a bit of a myth. 

Like Fuji released a list of “lenses designed for the new 40MP sensor”. 

Now people think my lens isn’t “enough for 40MP”. 

In my opinion you can put any lens in front of that 60MP sensor. 

what I found trying various lenses, some soft, some super sharp, some both, is that every lens can be put in front of my 40MP sensor. What the sensor does is merely enhance what the lens already is. So, for instance, if your lens is pretty soft at f2, then you won’t notice it so much on the 24MP sensor; but you’ll definitely notice it on the 40MP sensor. If your lens has muted sort of vintage rendering, low contrast for instance, then it will be really obvious on the M10R and not so much on the M10. 
 

So instead of thinking about it in terms of “resolving the sensor”, I think of it as more megapixels just make what the lens already is much more noticeable.

Like I had a 50f1.5 Voigtlander but in SC (single coat). It was supposed to give me a more vintage look, more muted rendering. Lower contrast. I was shooting the M10P at the time. I took photos with it and it seemed like any other modern lens to me. Until I bought the 10R. I immediately saw the muted tones and the fringing and softness at f1.5. All of a sudden everything the lens was advertised as being I could see it a lot more clearly. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Chimichurri

[knopfler1976]

54 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Any Leica lens can work fine on a 60MP camera. See the Appendix at the end of the linked article by Roger…

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/
 

Jeff

hi Jeff,

I don't know how much that means in real-world. My experiences on shooting Noctilux f/0.95 on the 40MP of M10-R definitely indicate that it's not up to the task of resolving 40MP. And since I also tried LiveView focusing so it's not the rangefinder issue. 

Now maybe data would show otherwise but I only look at the photos. I determined that it's a waste of 40MP to shoot Noctilux on it so I'm keeping Noctilux on M9.

Cheers!

Jerry

[knopfler1976]

 

34 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said:

The only question is to what extent an "old" lens can exhaust the sensor. Or whether losses are to be expected.
The acceptance then is left to each individual.

Yeh, I agree. I don't really read MTF charts. I take photos and see if the results are what I want. If not then move forward. No need to debate whether the MTF says otherwise.

There are simply many elements beyond MTF that matter. For example one thing I love about Noctilux f/0.95 (and to that extent most Leica M lenses) is that the out-of-focus fall-off is so smooth, that even if the subject is somewhat out-of-focus, the entire photo would still look good as the subject is relatively in-focus enough compared to the contexts. This allows for a lot more creativity when shooting streets as we rarely have perfect focus with moving people and compositions in street photography.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited November 3, 2022 by knopfler1976

[Jeff S]

Just now, knopfler1976 said:

My experiences on shooting Noctilux f/0.95 on the 40MP of M10-R definitely indicate that it's not up to the task of resolving 40MP.

Again, not how it works.

In my experience, higher MP better reveals the character of the lens. I’m pleased with my worthy pics and prints resulting from the same Leica lenses that I used on my M8.2 as with my current M10-R and M10 Monochrom.  My shooting and editing/print workflow has adjusted to accommodate any differences.  But I don’t print very large, nor do I pixel peep. Viewers don’t know or care about the gear used.

Jeff

[jakontil]

51 minutes ago, knopfler1976 said:

hi Jeff,

I don't know how much that means in real-world. My experiences on shooting Noctilux f/0.95 on the 40MP of M10-R definitely indicate that it's not up to the task of resolving 40MP. And since I also tried LiveView focusing so it's not the rangefinder issue. 

Now maybe data would show otherwise but I only look at the photos. I determined that it's a waste of 40MP to shoot Noctilux on it so I'm keeping Noctilux on M9.

Cheers!

Jerry

One thing i forgot to mention, i think you should give 0.95 noct or any other lenses which you keep away from M10-r due to their pixel productivity another go

they work great, to the extent where when paired with m11, i just love as much as when it was with my M10- p 

Lenses i have been with, including 28 summaron reissue, 35 summicron asph v1 black paint, have been wonderful regardless the M body i use, films and up to M11

[M Street Photographer]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb knopfler1976:

hi Jeff,

I don't know how much that means in real-world. My experiences on shooting Noctilux f/0.95 on the 40MP of M10-R definitely indicate that it's not up to the task of resolving 40MP. And since I also tried LiveView focusing so it's not the rangefinder issue. 

Now maybe data would show otherwise but I only look at the photos. I determined that it's a waste of 40MP to shoot Noctilux on it so I'm keeping Noctilux on M9.

Cheers!

Jerry

I read your article on the homepage very carefully and I really appreciate your attitude.
What I don't quite understand is that they prefer the 0.95 on the M9 to the M10R where it's not supposed to perform as well.
I would imagine that the M10 R is too sharp for your liking. However, I would believe that the transitions and gradient are smoother, more organic and analogous than the M9.
Since I would like to understand them exactly, I have a request, if it is not too much trouble for you:
Would you be willing to show us 2 shots of the same subject with the 0.95, one with the M9, one with the M10 R.

Perhaps what you feel is clearer in a direct comparison.
Thanks

[knopfler1976]

8 hours ago, M Street Photographer said:

I read your article on the homepage very carefully and I really appreciate your attitude.
What I don't quite understand is that they prefer the 0.95 on the M9 to the M10R where it's not supposed to perform as well.
I would imagine that the M10 R is too sharp for your liking. However, I would believe that the transitions and gradient are smoother, more organic and analogous than the M9.
Since I would like to understand them exactly, I have a request, if it is not too much trouble for you:
Would you be willing to show us 2 shots of the same subject with the 0.95, one with the M9, one with the M10 R.

Perhaps what you feel is clearer in a direct comparison.
Thanks

I did write in my article that my M10-R's rangefinder is not in sync with my Nocti. I could have it calibrated but I don't want to as my past experiences told me that it could screw up focusing with other lenses. Or maybe M9's rangefinder is just weird that it couldn't be calibrated to work on multiple lenses including Noctilux. Maybe M10-R's rangefinder could work with all if calibrated but for now I don't want to touch that.

I did do some M10-R+Noctilux test shots with LiveView (getting rid of the focusing issue). Sadly even at the more forgiving 5-10m distance my Noctilux definitely isn't resolving the 40MP sensor wide open. (I don't know what others' experiences are. I could only speak for mine)

I think color photos on M10-R definitely look more natural than M9. But the in-camera B&W of M9 is just addictive. I've used it for 11 years and will continue to use it. That's one of the main reasons I'm keeping Noctilux on M9. I know what I'll be getting when I hit the streets of Paris with this combo, behind which is 11 years of working relationships.

Happy to run some more controlled tests this weekend. Will share later.

Cheers!

Jerry

 

[Wonzo]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb knopfler1976: But the in-camera B&W of M9 is just addictive. I've used it for 11 years and will continue to use it. That's one of the main reasons I'm keeping Noctilux on M9. I know what I'll be getting when I hit the streets of Paris with this combo, behind which is 11 years of working relationships.

Have you ever tried the M9 Monochrom ? Would you think, that the b/w results of the M9 are even better and if yes, for what reason ?

 

[knopfler1976]

1 hour ago, Wonzo said:

 

I've never tried M9M. I saw some fantastic photos in the early years and then never really followed up. I guess that M9M's files would look different from M9's B+W. The way M9's in-camera algorithm converts the R-G-B channel is quite distinct to me. Without the R-G-B effect I guess the look of M9M's files is purely due to CCD? That said, I never owned one so can't really compare. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by knopfler1976

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Hallo,

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[charlesphoto99]

20 hours ago, knopfler1976 said:

hi Jeff,

I don't know how much that means in real-world.

Jeff is talking about the real world. Any lens will 'resolve' any sensor - including the bottom of a soda bottle - it's the character of the lens that is in question and whether one likes it or not that is independent of the sensor. Never once did I think, oh, this lens will resolve Plus-X but it won't TMAX 3200. It just doesn't work like that. 

[charlesphoto99]

On a separate note, is that Taranto in your pics? I had an exhibition there a few years back - lovely city.