the prophet's words

[vic vic]

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the great german thinker and criticist of yearly 20th century. walter benjamin, wrote a great essay - "the brief history of photography".

he was talking there anout the inherent "power of photography". he had noticed there that the photographs give some impression of reality dipiction and "pressense" of the object.

by the end of that article, walter benjamin made some notes about the future of this art. he mentioned the devlopment of smaller cameras that will allow "documenting" of life in a kind of "real time" and what kind of influance it may have on the society and person.

and indeed, very soon after this, two great photographers (among others too) started the intenssive work in this manner - henry cartier-bresson and andre kerteszh. the little camera was leica. i think that the first who most deeply started to explore this new field was andre keretszh (great hungarian photog), and one can see some similarities in early works of cartier bresson who go even further and explored new feild with his documentations of human life, "actuality" and reportage.

 

we all know what a great part played leica camera in this...

 

but where leica goes now???

surely they cannot repeat that great novelty of 20th century with that little camera that gave kerteszh and cartier bresson the "wings" that time. surely the "digital" is not leica's novelty.

what leica can do in order to bring the two great novelties of 20th together into 21st century???

u can read my question as "marketing and lebeling" question of the new m8. while advertising this camera as a "blend of old and new" with superb opto-mechanical quality and now probably superior digital quality, is good and attractive to many pros and amatures (mostly for those who already know and use leica).

but can leica go beyound it in its marketing and "image". can it take the "educational" role in the field of photography... can it take " re-newed inspiration role" the way it did when kerteszh took leica in his hand???

can it be a kind of "compas" to the great values and integrity of photography???

[stunsworth]

Not sure that I understand the question. There were cameras as small as the Leicas 50 or 60 years ago.

 

Leicas haven't been 'mainstream' cameras since the rise of the SLR in the early 60s.

[Guest stnami]

Leica did not invent the digital camera so they missed that boat.

I doubt if any of the camera manufacturers are and will be at the forefront of image making. The scope and possibilities of computer based contraptions are in their infancy, virtual interactive images in real space and time are only the beginnings and eventually they too will be under threat.

The moving picture as we know it will disappear as 'machines' tap our brainwaves directly etc. The changes will not be as a result of historical perspectives and any individual or company participating will be part of a fascinating journey

[erl]

Like Steve, I am not sure what your question (if any) is. If it is about the future of photography, that is largely in the hands of photographers. If it is about the future of Leica, probably, that is also in the hands of photographers.

 

Either way, it seems to be a question about the artisan rather than the tool(s).

 

In my brief span to date, I have seen, and worked with equipment changes from 4"x5" cameras as standard gear for press and other work all the way up to present where digital is all the go.

 

I have had to to adapt, as have others, to many innovations through the years and continue to stay 'afloat' at present. The point being that the gear is just that. The artisan is the real genius in the equation and will use whatever is available to produce the required result within the current climate of demand and possibility.

 

If I have missed the point of the original poster, please put it down to simply too much imbibing over dinner!

 

Cheers,

Erl

[vic vic]

steven - ya - i know it is not mainstream, but still, it has its strong place in the field of photography becasue of history and because of exclussivnes.

 

stnami... indeed the era is at its biggining stages. but i think the general tendecies are somewhat clear. i would rather say that in terms of photomaking somethings retained, still framing, still working with light and still reacting to more or less same things. (put apart the multi-media or cross media, and graphic art combination with photography issues at the moment). i mean the pure photography form retains its essense. of course the manufactureers willing to keep the pure forms of photo cause otherwise it iwill be hadrly justified for customers to buy high end equipment (u simply dont neeed phase one back if u want to make graphic art).

the more important issue of photography is related to the "light-speed information exchange" which also includes rich visual information as integral part. but this is not really photography, it is more using images (and for that little cameras) as part of the "information exchange processses".

about futuristic comment - well - im deep into these issue in my academic work although not from the "futuristic issues" point of view. it sounds great and the humanity prooved its ability to produce things that were more like crazy fantasys earleir. but still, i think we r a bit far from this futuristic things about the "brain" (or at least many sceintific fantasys about it). if some barriers will be crossed in terms of our scientific abilities, i doubt anyone of us can have a decent prediction of what shape and character those things will take :-) if this barrier is crossed somehow, then, only then we can get back to our fantasys and see if something can be implimanted via the newly aquired knowledge and abilities. as u may understand - in my "mind philosophy" im not "materialist".

 

erl, sure the photographers should do it at the botton line. the manufacturers give tools. it was leica with the camera that created new style and genre, it was adobe with the photoshop for graphic art and digi photo. and indeed, the companies react to the climate (needs, whishes and desires etc), but nonetheless, the companies create climate too. it is mutual. the companies that have one of the two elements : authority (like leica or hasselbald) and successful inovation (like the same adobe) do have some power (potentially at least) to "dectate" the spirit ofr the market at some extent.

if company has one of those elements, it can "invest" in "explonatory" issues and "educational" so to speack that goes beyound their direct advertising "frame". in turn, this will also act as pole position in later "marketing". so ya, while u present here i kind of primerly passive reaction to the market (like most companies do indeed), i ask about the activism in the market-place.

[albertwang]

Vic vic, incredible words about Walter Benjamin! Did you ever read "Illuminations"? I love that work quite a bit. Very profound. Good statement about mechanical reproduction of artwork. And the "Arcades Project" too. Very exceptional.

[frc]

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Academics should know better, simplify though not oversimplify. Primarily Leica needs new hereos, Creative and impressive photography by young and daring people. The aura of being a classic camera has to be shed of. My MP I cannot see as a classic, bought it new only two years ago, and still look at it as a brand new hi-tech piece of equipment. SLR design has changed alot over time, asthetic, automation, antishake. The looks as far as they count turned more and more amorph. Cool, modern, I don't know. Large these things are, very large and heavy. If as is commonly accepted the big market ( consumerelectronics ) rules the industry, digicams have proven to fit in small housings, young digital photographers used to small tools becoming professional and being able to raise a large enough budget may verywell be temted by the Leica M system. In terms of marketing Leica should put effort in reaching the upcoming pro's.

Given the fact that a 3 is two threequarter circels stacked and an 8 is two whole cicels stacked, it immediately shows the M3 and M8 are next of kin. Therefore stating the m8 is an equal revelation to mankind as the M3 was in the 50's turns to blunt nonsence. Industrial developments are at high pace, nobody in this postmodern world will be flabbergasted by the next digicam on the market, not even by our awaited M8.

People, young people are just not that concerned anymore about the hertage of a product.

Leica AG has a difficult task ahead after the first eruption of sales to the present M users.

[Guest stnami]

We are beyond post-modernism that was very related to the 90's last century, it is just that the term is being used by advertisers who have finally caught up.

[frc]

You're right stnami, some posters on this forum just don't keep up with time." The time is out of joint. O cursed spite, / That I was born to set it right." Hamlet. Post-modernism himself, Derrida started publishing '67, La voix et le phenomene, lost trace of him after Adieu a Emmanuel Levinas '97. I lost trace of philosophy in general lacking time to read enough. Anyway it's true the term can create confusion. ( no not Confucianism ) But don't make me dig into my library, fun but it takes a lot of time. Perhaps we should start a thread " Leicaphiles favorite philosophers ".

It was my intention trying to use comprehensible language to give an opinion about vic vic's initial question, " but where Leica goes now??? ". Throw-away-consumer-articles, I-pod, Reebok, MDF-furnature, and more...... My point I hope is clear, Leica has not only a task in keeping up there quality, but must also as any other brand give a big mouth on their advertisementchannels.

That is, send modern post to modern potential consumers.

Besides in what time are we living now?

[frc]

Ahhhh.... forgot. Read Susan Sonntag's On Photography recently.

Not realy an eyeopener.

[Guest leica_mage]

[...] Primarily Leica needs new hereos, Creative and impressive photography by young and daring people. The aura of being a classic camera has to be shed of. My MP I cannot see as a classic, bought it new only two years ago, and still look at it as a brand new hi-tech piece of equipment. [...]

frc, absolutely. I concur 100%. And apart from Leica needing 'new heroes [and] [c]reative and impressive photography by young and daring people' (or even old and daring, I would venture to add) we really need to start thinking seriously about the way we bring up our children. Never in the history of the Western World (and I use the term loosely and broadly, for in a way this encompasses Japan also) has such a plethora of information been so readily accessible by so many. Yet it is precisely the fact that what was once called the "humanist" tradition has been abandoned in education that has led to the phenomenon that most of those 'many' do not know how to think. If they dream, they do not know how to channel their vision. They are incapable of critical thought because they haven't the slightest clue as to what a syllogism is and what forms it takes. They have access to words and opinions and do not know what to do with them. And they are gullible. The latest fad becomes an end in itself.

 

You yourself say: 'I lost trace of philosophy in general lacking time to read enough. [...] But don't make me dig into my library, fun but it takes a lot of time.' Yes, but to lose trace of philosophy, one has to have been close to it. That is my case too. I have lost trace, but the fact that in my tender, impressionable years I could not have enough of the classical thinkers turned out to be an investment worth hundreds of times those books' weight in gold, if not platinum. No, I am not claiming to be a great "thinker", nor do I lay claim to fault-free thought or a faultless life. Far from it, I have my faults and I have made more than my share of mistakes. But so many of these young people... How on earth can one be expected to understand what the Leica rangefinder is about when all one has in one's spiritual luggage is Adidas, Coca-Cola, Nikon autofocus, Google? When one has no interests, hobbies, to speak of? When the complexity of an insect no longer fascinates because the organism has been weaned exclusively on Die Hard I, Die Hard II, Die Hard III, etc., etc. When there is no knowledge of history?

 

So, even if one has vision, how is one to channel it? The greatest raw talent in the world is but a brute force without a knowledge of how man has conducted himself as he evolved. How then to get these "new heroes"?

 

Our children, if they cannot get a "good education" out there, should get a good solid one at home. But all too often this is neglected. Parents focus too much on pontificating on and admonishing against certain things (the obvious: crime, drugs, etc.), and too little on guiding their children along a creative and critical path.

 

You quote Hamlet. My hat off to you Sir! How many young people today have read Hamlet - let along know what Hamlet is. I wouldn't be surprised to see people responding: 'Uh... I don't know... Is it a city?' if queried.

 

The problem? That so much of modern "education" actually "teaches" - even if only indirectly - that such things are totally irrelevant, and won't bring the bread home.

 

Best,

[Guest stnami]

With post modernism in the skids, ah great question maybe these sites go part of the way to answer "Besides in what time are we living now?" but I doubt it, well they don't at all. It is one of those questions that is brought up in earnest and hope yet no soul can give a definitive answer except to say we are out of Post-Modernism

Too bad Susan refuted most that she stated before she died and that is to her credit. Her role in photography is important even though she was prone to wander aimlessly at times

http://www.lensculture.com/bate1.html

 

http://www.lastplace.com/EXHIBITS/LVAM/artafter.htm

 

 

"we really need to start thinking seriously about the way we bring up our children" It may well be that they shall take that role and bring us up, and they shall admonish us and our values

 

all information is available in the future 'blink and remember' the camera of the 21st century produced by the decendants of Krumi productions

[lct]

Did the inventor of the pastry blender take an educational role in the field of cooking art?

Yes, probably.

Would his successors reniew that inspiration role if they use a laser ray for cutting butter and those sort of things?

Who knows...

 

[mikej]

By frc: "...People, young people are just not that concerned anymore about the hertage of a product.

Leica AG has a difficult task ahead after the first eruption of sales to the present M users."

 

frc, I don't think as a youngster that I was particularly attuned to product heritage 30-40 years ago. It took years of "consuming" before I began to appreciate the finer qualities of some products, and by extension, their brands/companies. The good news is the companies, like Leica, were still there when I "graduated." I hope that they will be there for the next generation as they learn to appreciate more than megapixel counts and memory size.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[vic vic]

oh, so many points rised here... at the moment i will comment to few of them as i have to go soon....

 

i am a young photographer... what will become of my crareer that it is in its beggining i dont know at the moment - there are "big intentions", but i will not speack about it at the moment. and ya, i use leica - mp as my prime tool.

i will give a perspective here about the young generation - a perspective which is not exactly "paternal" which is natural to older people than me, but a kind of young/mature, since i still remember my early youth days very well and im already into the serious bussnesses of adlutls :-))))

in short (and that is the comment to k.p points) - youth people look for "escape". espcape from the mainstream, from the regular, from the normal. it is a dynamic process in them since they are very influanced by the mainstream (and many times dont even have other points of referance). now, some of them succeed in getting that "escape". they find it in various things. but even here, the advertisers (and personally i know to do it very well myslef) do catch them on that and start to hit to main "espcape" fields and styles.

now here is my argument, and this argument was examined in practice a couple of months ago. (i took an educational project in one of the high schools taht was patroned by university. the money was not seroius, they even surprised taht i took this chalanging and time consuming project with teacher fee rate, but i was enthusiastc to see and study this issue and that was good oportunity).

so, in my class (preparation for grand mathematic final examimation) there were three categories of youths in general.

1. youths that totaly uncoscious about anything beyound what mainstreem tv, and this kind of things propose to them.

2. those who do want the "escape" in general but deffenetly need support and climate for it, cause they cannot keep on with it themselves. they do show interest, they do want to be developed, they do want to hear more, to see things from different angles, but they just cannot do it themsleves at this stage. most of them will never do it themsleves later on too if their life will go as normal.

3. those who do look for the escape and take it as chalange. chalange in the way the youth take it of course - but it is "call", it is still important chalange. with some luck, some of them will keep with it, some of them will give up later. those youths, do take "individual" approach. and it was clearly evident.

 

it is a matter of some inherent character and development.

now lets look into the 2nd category, those are most of the youths in my opinion... they need climate, and they are less capable to take individual resposibility of their own development. when i gave them the climate, both in math and some other talks we had in calss from time to time, they just took it ethusiastically as if thirsty man drinking water. now, i now that my personality was part of the attraction for them, but it is importantg to note that those youths do want to be developed and they do want not only "inforamtion" but some "belongliness" to something that makes impression on them.

 

ok, now take it to what i said in my original post, and to what many members commented about it....

 

u have the mainstream photography, thise cameras, those megapixles, those big zoom lenses (x12 zoom lens :-))) ). this is the main stream.

from the other hand we can say that the information is avalable to any one, so u just can take it if u want to "escape". if u say this, u actually say that either all people are of the 3rd category or that this info is limited to only some from the 3rd category who can take responsibility on their development (as personalities and as we talk here about photo than as photographers too).

what i say, is that if u give a big and well developed interface to young people (here we talk about those who are enthusiastic about photo and the new generation of pros), u can create a climate that most of the people need, and even the "individualists in their nature" will ejoy and will feel further encouraged. an "interface" of "belongness" and of "educational" oportunity is needed here. it is not exactly "authority" on knowledge and good taste of photography, altough something of this (at some extent) is also good (including for further marketing - as package of "elitism")... it is more about some organized, somehow integrated, and somehow concetrated "frameste of knowledge and education" which is dynamically developed with classic behind u and future ahead of u.

 

i have to go now, i will continue the comment on other points later on.

[fotografr]

I don't think people are so different now than at any time in the past. There will always be individuals within a profession who strive for the best possible result. For many of us older photographers, this is what brought us to Leica in the first place. We wanted an edge--something to make our work stand out from the rest--and Leica gave it to us. For decades, every working photographer knew what Leica stood for and desired to have one hanging around his or her neck. The only reason I ever heard any photographer offer for not using Leica equipment was that they couldn't afford it. For me, that didn't matter. I just had to have it and from the time I saw my first Leica shoot on the lightbox I was hooked. I could immediately see the difference.

 

This quality still exists with high end Leica equipment, however, the danger for Leica is that this impression is being diminished by the production of average quality lenses on average quality digital cameras. I recently saw a comparison of images shot with a Canon point & shoot and a comparable Leica. The Canon blew the Leica out of the water for sharpness and contrast. I understand why Leica thinks they have to produce these lower quality lenses and cameras in order to survive in today's market, but what they are sacrificing in the process is that niche of excellence across the board. Young people who enter the camera market today and see the Leica P & S cameras and Panasonics with the Leica lenses will not come away with the same impression of brand excellence that we all once did. This, in my opinion, is the most costly loss to Leica in the long run and does not bode well for their future. I would much prefer to see Leica get their name out of the P & S market completely. There is no reason the Leica name has to go on a lens made for a Panasonic camera. They should make the lens, reap the profit, but put a Panasonic name on it. If Leica were to concentrate all their effort on making the M8 and the DMR the absolute best digital rangefinder and SLR cameras with the absolute best available lenses and forget about all the other junk, I think they would recapture the notion that when you pick up a Leica you are picking up unmatched quality.

[frc]

Times have changed, fotografr. Datastreams flow rapid as never before. Artifacts are replaceable beyond comprehension. How does one keep up, how do the juvenile growing up in this turmoil. Leica AG is in the slipstream of it all and yes I agree they misestimated in which direction to navigate their campaigning.

I see nothing wrong with p&s camera's, but Hasselbladt, Mamija, Sinar not making pocketmodels gives a clue. Why would it be that these companies haven't tried the same. It gives a clear view on the fact that our friends in Solms misinterpreted their face in the market. The situation seems so obvious, combatting with Canon and Nikon in the field of their monopoly was a lost fight even before it began. On raising children, be hopefull, my son, being 15 years of age not only loves I-pods heavy rock and nikes but is without any pressure in any direction not only playing Scarlatti and Bach but is also saving money to get hold of an M6. He has a very mild though straightforeward way of expressing his dislike of my D70s DSLR, plastic and everything on the wrong spot.

What were these three categories again?

[leicanewbie]

The one theme I'm hearing is how Leica missed the boat, etc, etc.

 

If there's one lesson we can take from the dot-com era, is that there's always hype around

being the bleeding edge and getting left behind. Marketers make their living on selling

new product, and in a commodity market where lowest price is king, features, gadgets,

and convenience serve to prop up the value, the price and the product.

 

We lament about Leica missing the boat and how Nikon and Canon are setting the pace.

Let's not forget, that large companies need large volumes and large revenue to sustain

their operations. It is a perverse sort of Achilles heel. Nikon has to out-do Sony and

Canon, and price pressures keep the business from booming. They have to add cutesy features, music, auto-focus, red-eye reduction in order to attract and retain the non

technical user.

 

Even in the burgeoning digital SLR market, I don't know of too many teenagers or

college students forking over 1500 for a digital SLR. The most they'll spend is 300 on

a camera that is small, light and works.

 

So Leica, Hasselblad and others realize that their target audience -- the ones with the

money to spend on this -- are slightly older. I would wager that in their market analysis

the average age would be upper 20s to mid-30s. People who pull down some decent

coin.

 

 

And for these people, yes, the digital SLRs are very much the trophy just as were the

big honkin' SUVs. But that fades.

 

As far as digital goes, what boat was missed exactly? Was it the boat in 1999 when

2 Megapixels was a big deal, or 2003 when 5 Megapixels was a big deal, or is it now

when 10 Megapixels is a big deal. The lesson from the dot-com era was clear -- being

first doesn't guarantee you market or anything. In fact, it compounds your problem if

you cannot predict your market or manage your inventory.

 

There's boats leaving every hour

 

 

 

The goal is to have a sustainable strategy that build on and strengthens the brand so

that the name comes to symbolize something for its customers, just like Mercedes,

BMW or Porsche. I'm sure Porsche took A LOT of flack for not abandoning the high-cost

sports car market and focus on growing volume. They tried that once and it almost

sunk the company.

 

So too with Leica -- I think they understand their brand, their customers, and with their

new management have a strategy that seems to be paying off. It's about building a

sustainable business, and not chasing technology.

 

:)

[Bob Ross]

There's boats leaving every hour

 

The goal is to have a sustainable strategy that build on and strengthens the brand so

that the name comes to symbolize something for its customers, just like Mercedes,

BMW or Porsche. I'm sure Porsche took A LOT of flack for not abandoning the high-cost

sports car market and focus on growing volume. They tried that once and it almost

sunk the company.

 

So too with Leica -- I think they understand their brand, their customers, and with their

new management have a strategy that seems to be paying off. It's about building a

sustainable business, and not chasing technology.

 

Well said Milan. In a way Leica waited for the boat that said, "mature technology" before letting their Ms & Rs head for digital land. While they have had the parallel consumer line since the 90s, they have not become so locked in to the commodity cash flow game, that their high quality trademark products, the Ms & Rs, were compromised.

The boat comes in on Sept. 26th, watch for the one that says "mature technology";)

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest stnami]

By missed the boat I meantthat they cannot repeat that great inovation of the 20th century with that little camera. Sure they will make damn good cameras, but they will not be the the pace setters that they were maybe in the next round of technology