Q2 Reporter Workmanship

[Kamera Klutter]

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Based on the complaints and how the material doesn’t wear well, I predict Leica will offer a free re-clad to those objecting to their fraying Kev**r in the not-too-distant future, using a different material. 

[hdmesa]

12 minutes ago, Kamera Klutter said:

Based on the complaints and how the material doesn’t wear well, I predict Leica will offer a free re-clad to those objecting to their fraying Kev**r in the not-too-distant future, using a different material. 

After reports of the Kevlar fraying on the M10 Reporter (released first before the Q2 Reporter), Leica added verbiage to the Q2 Reporter marketing about the texture of the material becoming "individualized" over time or something like that, saying it was intentional to the design. They have since removed that verbiage, perhaps because it was admitting that the material was changing and perhaps degrading over time.

I think they would replace the cladding with leather if you showed them the state of your cladding and asked nicely   I wish we could get retro Vulcanite cladding as a replacement choice – it would be super sweet on the Q2 Reporter. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[LocalHero1953]

Curious - how many people have seen fraying on their Q2 Reporter? It's difficult to get a clear picture when the same person posts in several threads (haha).

Edited September 27, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[cwcltd]

I’ve had my Q2R since March ‘22 and it’s been in daily use; very slight and hardly noticeable fraying on the sides. Not concerned about it at the moment.

[hdmesa]

I had one of the M10 Reporters and the fraying happened quickly, especially at the bottom where the edge of the cladding was exposed by removing the bottom plate. 

My first Q2R I had for a few months, and it held up better since the edges are tucked in. The material textures “lifts” a bit with use, but I believe this is by design.

Second Q2R is too new to show wear yet.

But I do think Leica owes us an explanation of exactly what happened with saying the cladding was the DuPont brand Kevlar for over a year, but now they have removed all references to Kevlar and are calling it aramid fiber. According to DuPont’s marketing guidelines for Kevlar, Leica’s Reporter pages were in violation of several parts, such as durability/toughness claims, large size of the word “Kevlar” on the page, etc.

[frame-it]

14 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Here's what Leica got wrong about Kevlar, perhaps even due to a misunderstanding about how Kevlar is used – from the Q2R Leica page:

Aramid Fiber
A synthetic material used in high-grade protective clothing. The fibers are so tightly spun,  that they are almost impossible to separate. As a result, the Q2 Reporter's aramid fibers trim  - woven in a distinctive pattern – offers outstanding protection and excellent grip even in the  harshest conditions.

What Leica got wrong is how these fibers work. They are quite resilient against trauma like a fast-moving projectile, but they are not very resistant to low-level abrasion over time.

It also seems as though Leica has removed the word "Kevlar" from the product description. DuPont may have gotten pissed that Leica was using their material outside of a protective shell and the resulting reports of fraying noted in this forum and elsewhere. Bad press for Kevlar maybe?

https://www.mcrsafety.com/blog/aramid

 

interesting >

• Aramids are sensitive to acids, bases, and chlorine. You have to launder products made from aramids differently than other textiles.
• Aramids are sensitive to ultraviolet radiation. This is why our aramid products come in a black bag to protect them from ultraviolet light.
• Motorcycle jackets made with aramid fibers can be truly protective garments, although they likely will never be quite as abrasion-protective as leather. The aramid fibers can improve comfort, but they are not wind- or waterproof, so they don’t help with weather protection. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by frame-it

[LocalHero1953]

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From the images I have seen, there are two issues at play: fraying at the edges (and I can well understand that a M with removable baseplate is vulnerable because of the exposed edges) and wear on the surface - the sort of fluffiness/raised texture some notice, which attracts/traps other dust and dirt.

[Franka373]

I’m a there a coating of some sort that can be applied to the K**lar to protect it?

[LocalHero1953]

7 minutes ago, Franka373 said:

I’m a there a coating of some sort that can be applied to the K**lar to protect it?

The normal way to deal with fraying ends to artificial fibre is to fuse them with a match.
Now someone's going to tell me that Kevlar doesn't melt except at sun core temperatures.

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/safety/public/documents/en/Kevlar_Guidelines_FairUse_2022.pdf

Based on the old copy of the Q2 Reporter page still available via web archives, Leica was in violation of many of the requirements.

And did they have a licensing agreement with DuPont? If they did, then why did they drop "Kevlar" from the Q2 product page instead of modifying the page to comply with DuPont's Kevlar fair use guide?

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Items in red are what I think Leica may have not adhered to:

And:

From the original version of the Q2 Reporter page. I've not looked back at the M10 Reporter page:

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[Kamera Klutter]

It’s hard to believe that a grown-up, international company like Leica wouldn’t comply with DuPont’s trademark guidelines for its product, Kevlar. Trademarked items are serious business. Don’t they have a legal department that vets their marketing material? We’re not talking about an Etsy store here! 

[hdmesa]

7 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

There are zero Kevlar references on M10-P Reporter press release. Aramid is used instead.
(Sorry I am putting M10-P Reporter in here, I have just been researching it as I am about to get one. Still, virtually the same finish.)
Kevlar is the new King of Bokeh elephant in the room haha.

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Most likely Leica removed all references to Kevlar across their site, even the original press releases.

[hdmesa]

Just now, Kamera Klutter said:

It’s hard to believe that a grown-up, international company like Leica wouldn’t comply with DuPont’s trademark guidelines for its product, Kevlar. Trademarked items are serious business. Don’t they have a legal department that vets their marketing material? We’re not talking about an Etsy store here! 

Agreed. But it could be as simple as Leica's agreement with DuPont to use Kevlar was time-based and expired, and they didn't want to pay to renew it. We'll never know unless we hear from Leica or DuPont directly.

[pgh]

This is just another reason why almost any special edition Leica is a ridiculous prospect IMO. No practical value - just rarity and aesthetic differences (but not improvements), additional problems, additional cost. Those sandpapering their M10R BP are a gas too - if anyone wanted proof that Leica is perhaps best known for being seen with as opposed to actually photographing with. 

1 hour ago, Kamera Klutter said:

It’s hard to believe that a grown-up, international company like Leica wouldn’t comply with DuPont’s trademark guidelines for its product, Kevlar. Trademarked items are serious business. Don’t they have a legal department that vets their marketing material? We’re not talking about an Etsy store here! 

Unfortunately I don't find this hard to believe. Every digital Leica I've purchased new (3 of them...shame on me), beginning with the M8, has come with problems from the factory that would be considered sloppy (or worse...actually 2 of the 3 not even functionally passing QC) from any Japanese manufacturer. My experience is that their marketing and their design are better than corporate execution in a few measures. 

[hdmesa]

50 minutes ago, pgh said:

This is just another reason why almost any special edition Leica is a ridiculous prospect IMO. No practical value - just rarity and aesthetic differences (but not improvements), additional problems, additional cost. Those sandpapering their M10R BP are a gas too - if anyone wanted proof that Leica is perhaps best known for being seen with as opposed to actually photographing with. 

Unfortunately I don't find this hard to believe. Every digital Leica I've purchased new (3 of them...shame on me), beginning with the M8, has come with problems from the factory that would be considered sloppy (or worse...actually 2 of the 3 not even functionally passing QC) from any Japanese manufacturer. My experience is that their marketing and their design are better than corporate execution in a few measures. 

For some of us, aesthetic differences can be practical reason to own one product over another. If the black Q2 finish was like the finish on the SL2/SL2-S, then I'd have been ok with it. But to me, the regular Q2 black finish is worse than having worn cladding on the Q2R. In most cases, this kind of difference isn't worth the price of the special edition, but for the Q2R, the price difference (IMO) is negligible given the price point of the regular Q2.

[hdmesa]

5 hours ago, Al Brown said:

There are still solid Kevlar references on Leica Camera's M10-P Reporter webpage

 

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https://leica-camera.com/en-AE/photography/cameras/m/m10-p-reporter

I missed this post. This makes me lean toward the theory that Leica was using Kevlar initially then switched to a generic version more recently (Since the M10-P Reporter is discontinued. At least one of these trickled out as new stock recently, but it could still have the Kevlar brand cladding from old stock).

Edited September 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, Kamera Klutter said:

It’s hard to believe that a grown-up, international company like Leica wouldn’t comply with DuPont’s trademark guidelines for its product, Kevlar. Trademarked items are serious business. Don’t they have a legal department that vets their marketing material? We’re not talking about an Etsy store here! 

The Leica T [name] had to be changed to TL, that was also something to do with a copyright issue

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

Every digital Leica I've purchased new (3 of them...shame on me), beginning with the M8, has come with problems from the factory that would be considered sloppy (or worse...actually 2 of the 3 not even functionally passing QC) from any Japanese manufacturer.

In thinking back, I have purchased five new Leicas in my lifetime - a black paint MP 0.72 (no sandpapering, thanks to all who wondered), an M240, an M-P 240, a Q2 and an M10 Monochrom.

All five were 100% functional with no problems or cosmetic flaws straight out of the box.  Same with my "used" but never used minty M4-P. 

Just saying...

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[pgh]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

See? Zero f*cks given about being seen with a sandpapered M10R BP. You said you use the 907x for your projects. Same thing

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I do appreciate aesthetics (that translate into function) in camera design, otherwise I'd never own a Leica. It's the only area they exceed other manufacturers, and until very recently (with digital), they have actually been notably behind them in basically any other measurable trait. I still mostly use my M10, but I use my 907 for specific work - and while I like the design of it I mostly use it because the project benefits from a 3:4 landscape format and waist level shooting in a small package. The design is the best fit for that particular work. That's got nothing to do with trying to make my camera looking aged without having any of the actual life such marks imply it had - it's just silly. I mean, silly is fine, but we can still call it silly. 

15 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

All five were 100% functional with no problems or cosmetic flaws straight out of the box.  Same with my "used" but never used minty M4-P. 

So between our 8 cameras we've got a 62.5 success rate. I'm sure that's what they're shooting for. We could knock it down a little since one camera I had needed two trips back to Germany for them to get it right, basically making my new camera 3 months late. Shrug. 

My point was Leica isn't some infallible company - a few minutes on this forum in any section will show a reader that. It's not a big surprise - manufacturing just about anything in Japan is still better (from a QC perspective - not from a design or fun factor perspective) than most of the world. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by pgh

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