Q2 Reporter Workmanship

[Kamera Klutter]

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1 hour ago, bobtodrick said:

In the past you would want the fraying.

In 1973 I bought my first serious camera, a black paint Nikon F2 (my son still uses it).

Anyhoo…at that time it was popular to take some sandpaper and sand down to the brass at the wear points on a new camera.

Made you look like you just returned from covering the Vietnam war.

I had an F2 from the mid-seventies. Beautiful and well-made camera. Brassing is a badge of honor. It shows an instrument performing in service to craft. But fraying Kevlar just looks crummy. As in, poorly made. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Kamera Klutter
Grammar

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Kamera Klutter said:

I had an F2 from the mid-seventies. Beautiful and well-made camera. Brassing is a badge of honor. It shows an instrument performing in service to craft. But fraying Kevlar just looks crummy. As in, poorly made. 

There is no amount of better workmanship that would keep the Kevlar from fraying.

Kevlar used without a protective layer was simply a poor (or questionable) design choice.

Edited September 26, 2022 by hdmesa

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[hdmesa]

Here's what Leica got wrong about Kevlar, perhaps even due to a misunderstanding about how Kevlar is used – from the Q2R Leica page:

Aramid Fiber
A synthetic material used in high-grade protective clothing. The fibers are so tightly spun,  that they are almost impossible to separate. As a result, the Q2 Reporter's aramid fibers trim  - woven in a distinctive pattern – offers outstanding protection and excellent grip even in the  harshest conditions.

What Leica got wrong is how these fibers work. They are quite resilient against trauma like a fast-moving projectile, but they are not very resistant to low-level abrasion over time.

It also seems as though Leica has removed the word "Kevlar" from the product description. DuPont may have gotten pissed that Leica was using their material outside of a protective shell and the resulting reports of fraying noted in this forum and elsewhere. Bad press for Kevlar maybe?

[bobtodrick]

2 hours ago, Kamera Klutter said:

I had an F2 from the mid-seventies. Beautiful and well-made camera. Brassing is a badge of honor. It shows an instrument performing in service to craft. But fraying Kevlar just looks crummy. As in, poorly made. 

Don’t get me wrong…not saying it’s acceptable…just that fifty years ago it would have been considered a badge of honour:)

But yes…I used my F2 professionally for about 15 years and it is still working great for my son.

[Kamera Klutter]

Based on the complaints and how the material doesn’t wear well, I predict Leica will offer a free re-clad to those objecting to their fraying Kev**r in the not-too-distant future, using a different material. 

[hdmesa]

12 minutes ago, Kamera Klutter said:

Based on the complaints and how the material doesn’t wear well, I predict Leica will offer a free re-clad to those objecting to their fraying Kev**r in the not-too-distant future, using a different material. 

After reports of the Kevlar fraying on the M10 Reporter (released first before the Q2 Reporter), Leica added verbiage to the Q2 Reporter marketing about the texture of the material becoming "individualized" over time or something like that, saying it was intentional to the design. They have since removed that verbiage, perhaps because it was admitting that the material was changing and perhaps degrading over time.

I think they would replace the cladding with leather if you showed them the state of your cladding and asked nicely   I wish we could get retro Vulcanite cladding as a replacement choice – it would be super sweet on the Q2 Reporter. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[LocalHero1953]

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Curious - how many people have seen fraying on their Q2 Reporter? It's difficult to get a clear picture when the same person posts in several threads (haha).

Edited September 27, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[cwcltd]

I’ve had my Q2R since March ‘22 and it’s been in daily use; very slight and hardly noticeable fraying on the sides. Not concerned about it at the moment.

[hdmesa]

I had one of the M10 Reporters and the fraying happened quickly, especially at the bottom where the edge of the cladding was exposed by removing the bottom plate. 

My first Q2R I had for a few months, and it held up better since the edges are tucked in. The material textures “lifts” a bit with use, but I believe this is by design.

Second Q2R is too new to show wear yet.

But I do think Leica owes us an explanation of exactly what happened with saying the cladding was the DuPont brand Kevlar for over a year, but now they have removed all references to Kevlar and are calling it aramid fiber. According to DuPont’s marketing guidelines for Kevlar, Leica’s Reporter pages were in violation of several parts, such as durability/toughness claims, large size of the word “Kevlar” on the page, etc.

[frame-it]

14 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Here's what Leica got wrong about Kevlar, perhaps even due to a misunderstanding about how Kevlar is used – from the Q2R Leica page:

Aramid Fiber
A synthetic material used in high-grade protective clothing. The fibers are so tightly spun,  that they are almost impossible to separate. As a result, the Q2 Reporter's aramid fibers trim  - woven in a distinctive pattern – offers outstanding protection and excellent grip even in the  harshest conditions.

What Leica got wrong is how these fibers work. They are quite resilient against trauma like a fast-moving projectile, but they are not very resistant to low-level abrasion over time.

It also seems as though Leica has removed the word "Kevlar" from the product description. DuPont may have gotten pissed that Leica was using their material outside of a protective shell and the resulting reports of fraying noted in this forum and elsewhere. Bad press for Kevlar maybe?

https://www.mcrsafety.com/blog/aramid

 

interesting >

• Aramids are sensitive to acids, bases, and chlorine. You have to launder products made from aramids differently than other textiles.
• Aramids are sensitive to ultraviolet radiation. This is why our aramid products come in a black bag to protect them from ultraviolet light.
• Motorcycle jackets made with aramid fibers can be truly protective garments, although they likely will never be quite as abrasion-protective as leather. The aramid fibers can improve comfort, but they are not wind- or waterproof, so they don’t help with weather protection. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by frame-it

[Al Brown]

https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/safety/public/documents/en/Kevlar_Guidelines_FairUse_2022.pdf

[LocalHero1953]

From the images I have seen, there are two issues at play: fraying at the edges (and I can well understand that a M with removable baseplate is vulnerable because of the exposed edges) and wear on the surface - the sort of fluffiness/raised texture some notice, which attracts/traps other dust and dirt.

[Franka373]

I’m a there a coating of some sort that can be applied to the K**lar to protect it?

[LocalHero1953]

7 minutes ago, Franka373 said:

I’m a there a coating of some sort that can be applied to the K**lar to protect it?

The normal way to deal with fraying ends to artificial fibre is to fuse them with a match.
Now someone's going to tell me that Kevlar doesn't melt except at sun core temperatures.

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/safety/public/documents/en/Kevlar_Guidelines_FairUse_2022.pdf

Based on the old copy of the Q2 Reporter page still available via web archives, Leica was in violation of many of the requirements.

And did they have a licensing agreement with DuPont? If they did, then why did they drop "Kevlar" from the Q2 product page instead of modifying the page to comply with DuPont's Kevlar fair use guide?

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Items in red are what I think Leica may have not adhered to:

And:

From the original version of the Q2 Reporter page. I've not looked back at the M10 Reporter page:

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[Al Brown]

There are still solid Kevlar references on Leica Camera's M10-P Reporter webpage

 

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https://leica-camera.com/en-AE/photography/cameras/m/m10-p-reporter Edited September 27, 2022 by Al Brown

[Al Brown]

There are zero Kevlar references on M10-P Reporter press release. Aramid is used instead.
(Sorry I am putting M10-P Reporter in here, I have just been researching it as I am about to get one. Still, virtually the same finish.)
Kevlar is the new King of Bokeh elephant in the room haha.

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Edited September 27, 2022 by Al Brown

[Kamera Klutter]

It’s hard to believe that a grown-up, international company like Leica wouldn’t comply with DuPont’s trademark guidelines for its product, Kevlar. Trademarked items are serious business. Don’t they have a legal department that vets their marketing material? We’re not talking about an Etsy store here! 

[hdmesa]

7 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

There are zero Kevlar references on M10-P Reporter press release. Aramid is used instead.
(Sorry I am putting M10-P Reporter in here, I have just been researching it as I am about to get one. Still, virtually the same finish.)
Kevlar is the new King of Bokeh elephant in the room haha.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Most likely Leica removed all references to Kevlar across their site, even the original press releases.

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[hdmesa]

Just now, Kamera Klutter said:

It’s hard to believe that a grown-up, international company like Leica wouldn’t comply with DuPont’s trademark guidelines for its product, Kevlar. Trademarked items are serious business. Don’t they have a legal department that vets their marketing material? We’re not talking about an Etsy store here! 

Agreed. But it could be as simple as Leica's agreement with DuPont to use Kevlar was time-based and expired, and they didn't want to pay to renew it. We'll never know unless we hear from Leica or DuPont directly.