New Leica M6 Film Camera

[jonoslack]

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13 hours ago, 250swb said:

Well you would say that. But it's clear Leica already had a brass top plate with a crank arm option available for the MP (planned and widely promoted if not delivered) in the MP's al la carte programme long before now. So they essentially had a camera on the blocks ready to go that only needed some different engraving to the top plate. All they had to do is wait until the new found demand for film cameras and the prices for second hand M6's reached meltdown and then release it. If they can't deliver enough MP's right now it will be because all the components are going into the 'new' M6, otherwise what is the holdup with the MP if the 'new' M6 has all new components and is not sharing anything?

Well, I say what I've been told - I don't have an angle on it - you could be right, but if that's the case then what I've been told is wrong (shrug). Personally I have to decide between what I've been told, and what you're guessing!

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[verwackelt]

Finally, it's the same hardware for decades. It's disappointing that at least one new shutter with a short exposure time of 1/4000 seconds wasn't installed. Leica is known for its high-speed lenses. But with the current hardware, the photographic possibilities do not change at all…

[jukka]

12 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

After y’all find out what was redesigned on the new M6 and how it differs from MP, what are you going to do with that ultra relevant and crucial data and how will it affect your photography?

Here, here! I’ve been wondering the same; what exactly is the point of this discussion?

The MP is still “mechanical perfection”, maybe just not the most perfect, but who cares. There was always going to be a newer/better/younger model. That is how life works. 

These are tools for photography, not luxury watches and items of status and achievement, no? 

[mujk]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Now we need a comparable photo of the MP and old M6.

Edit: OK, just seen the previous post.

Both M6 classic and M6TTL look very different with cover removed. Electronics boards are also very different, the M6 board being the smallest of them all.

Images on DAG's site (first image M6, second image M6TTL board, fourth image a bunch of M6 boards):

https://www.dagcamera.com/store/p166/Leica_M6-_Classic-_No_More_Main_Circuit_Boards.html

On the M6 the hot shoe and PC connector are attached to the body assembly, while on the M6TTL onwards they are attached to the top cover. So my guess is that the new M6/MP boards will not fit into the M6 classic.

 

[mujk]

8 minutes ago, jukka said:

Here, here! I’ve been wondering the same; what exactly is the point of this discussion?

The MP is still “mechanical perfection”, maybe just not the most perfect, but who cares. There was always going to be a newer/better/younger model. That is how life works. 

These are tools for photography, not luxury watches and items of status and achievement, no? 

As long as both models stay in production information about internal differences is mostly irrelevant. But as soon as one model is discontinued the interchangeability of parts will become important for those who happen to own this.

[wattsy]

17 minutes ago, mujk said:

But as soon as one model is discontinued the interchangeability of parts will become important for those who happen to own this.

Of all the potential calamities that can happen as you go through life, Leica no longer stocking interchangeable spare parts for a film camera doesn't strike me as something worth worrying about. Why not enjoy what you already have, now?

[jonoslack]

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Well, I think I'm bailing out of this conversation as I have nothing left to add! 

Still, I think it's wonderful that Leica have clearly demonstrated their commitment to film photography, and this must be good for all of us, whether you own (or want to own) an MP or an MA, or you are tempted by the new M6. 

All the best

Jono

[Matlock]

52 minutes ago, wattsy said:

Of all the potential calamities that can happen as you go through life, Leica no longer stocking interchangeable spare parts for a film camera doesn't strike me as something worth worrying about. Why not enjoy what you already have, now?

You could even (perish the thought) go out and take photos.

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, mujk said:

Sorry, but I still don't understand why parts of the new M6 could not be compatible with the MP, even though Leica marketing claims that the M6 is an all new camera. Just compare the images of the two with top plate removed:

https://twitter.com/Ffordesphoto/status/1583087017461616640?s=20&t=kkA17pzjp7C_m4ATfy-rkA

http://feuerbacher.net/photo/repair/LeicaMP/LeicaMP.html

For example electronics boards are very similar.

Leica’s marketing director said the new M6 meant continued repair source for the old M6. And since we know the MP boards can’t be used to repair the old M6, that tells us the new M6 ≠ MP even if they look similar physically. But who knows, perhaps Leica modified the MP board so that it now is cross-compatible with all. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, mujk said:

As long as both models stay in production information about internal differences is mostly irrelevant. But as soon as one model is discontinued the interchangeability of parts will become important for those who happen to own this.

Not in the case of Leica. They will hand-make parts for old M film cameras when they repair them today. The only difference is the repair may be more expensive. Really all that matters (for some) in the long run (as in 30-50 years) is the repairability of the meter. Worst case scenario is one day the MP’s meter dies and it becomes an M-A  But I likely don’t have 50 years of life left to live anyway, so an MP or new M6, they probably have the same useful lifespan for me.

Edited October 23, 2022 by hdmesa

[Mr.Prime]

It’s just too expensive, a used M2, M4 are just so much better value.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[lmans]

2 hours ago, jukka said:

Here, here! I’ve been wondering the same; what exactly is the point of this discussion?

The MP is still “mechanical perfection”, maybe just not the most perfect, but who cares. There was always going to be a newer/better/younger model. That is how life works. 

These are tools for photography, not luxury watches and items of status and achievement, no? 

I think it is being a bit 'overdoing' it by stating the MP is mechanical perfection. In what manner is it more of 'perfection' than the new M6 although admittedly, the M6 isn't in our hands yet so we can't test it. But if it is true that the viewfinder of the M6 is equal to that of the MP, and....the film rewind mechanism of the M6 is equal to that of the old M6 as opposed to the MP / M3 version, then perhaps mechanical perfection now belongs to the M6..... not to mention the inner works which I have no idea of. 

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, jukka said:

These are tools for photography, not luxury watches and items of status and achievement, no? 

Sadly, I think they have become both. A £4500 film camera with standard lenses that cost thousands more could hardly not be a status symbol, and Leica is very much in the luxury goods business these days. This is probably a necessary evil for Leica to survive and thrive. As former CEO Alfred Schopf puts it:

'The value of a Leica is experienced as soon as you take one in your hand. It is perceived in the perfect finish, the choice of materials and manufacturing expertise that has grown and evolved over the past 100 years. The red dot, Leica’s trademark, stands for a century of photographic history. The art and reportage photography of Leica photographers have created visual icons of contemporary history. Many public figures, actors and actresses, crowned heads and legendary photographers called and call a Leica their own. This all adds to the unique charisma of the brand. A little of this charisma may rub off on Leica customers, or at least some of them feel it does. Each customer becomes a member of the Leica family. This makes our products status symbols and expressions of a lifestyle characterised by exacting values and the pursuit of perfection. I have nothing against this at all as long as our products fulfil what they promise in terms of quality and functional excellence.'

I don't think there's any need to worry about the impact of internal mechanical changes on existing bodies. After all, many of us have Leicas from the 1930s that still work perfectly well and can be serviced. Some of the better technicians, like Leica themselves, have fabricated parts that can no longer be obtained, including LTM beamsplitters and M3 prisms and older brightline masks. Electronic components are more problematic, but if Leica does not step up to provide replacements for the unavailable M6 circuit boards, there may still be hope of third party alternatives. Alan Starkie has mentioned he is working on one for the M6 Classic using modern components. But perhaps the board in the new M6, or some variant of it, will have been designed to work with the original M6 bodies if Leica are serious about keeping them serviceable, and surely they will have considered MP compatibility? I wouldn't worry at all about buying the current MP if that were the camera I wanted, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were revised in future to incorporate the internal changes made to the new M6. It wouldn't make any sense to have very similar bodies in production with unnecessary incompatibilities once the stock of parts for the earlier model had been exhausted. Easier to make the same basic body and swap out the wind/rewind furniture and cosmetic elements as required.

[mujk]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Not in the case of Leica. They will hand-make parts for old M film cameras when they repair them today. The only difference is the repair may be more expensive. Really all that matters (for some) in the long run (as in 30-50 years) is the repairability of the meter. Worst case scenario is one day the MP’s meter dies and it becomes an M-A  But I likely don’t have 50 years of life left to live anyway, so an MP or new M6, they probably have the same useful lifespan for me.

I bought my ex-demo M6TTL with full warranty in 2005. Since 2017 there have been reports that Leica does not have certain spare parts for the metering system (which is quite complex because of TTL flash control). Some years later Leica announced that the metering board for the M6 classic is no longer available.

If metering stopped working in my M6TTL tomorrow I would be extremely unhappy. A meterless camera is unfortunately useless for me. One special thing about film Ms is that they are repairable for many years, as you mention. For the M6TTL it was about 15 years from end of production (2002). So my point was that, hopefully, Leica now makes the models where even electronics would be replacable for at least a bit longer than that. After all, the meter in the new M6 and MP should be quite a simple circuit.

Edited October 23, 2022 by mujk

[hdmesa]

10 minutes ago, mujk said:

I bought my ex-demo M6TTL with full warranty in 2005. Since 2017 there have been reports that Leica does not have certain spare parts for the metering system (which is quite complex because of TTL flash control). Some years later Leica announced that the metering board for the M6 classic is no longer available.

If metering stopped working in my M6TTL tomorrow I would be extremely unhappy. A meterless camera is unfortunately useless for me. One special thing about film Ms is that they are repairable for many years, as you mention. For the M6TTL it was about 15 years from end of production (2002). So my point was that, hopefully, Leica now makes the models where even electronics would be replacable for at least a bit longer than that. After all, the meter in the new M6 and MP should be quite a simple circuit.

Meterless might be inconvenient, but useless? To each their own, I suppose. I hope the new M6 also means replacements will be possible for the older M6 cameras, but I wouldn't bet real money on it. What I would bet money on is Leica offering you a substantial discount on a new M6 if your M6 TTL meter fails.

[hdmesa]

27 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Sadly, I think they have become both. A £4500 film camera with standard lenses that cost thousands more could hardly not be a status symbol, and Leica is very much in the luxury goods business these days...

Many of us are buying them simply for what they are. Further, luxury and utility are not mutually exclusive with regard to purchasing decisions.

[Succisa75]

I think it's only fitting that a camera made in the early 2000's touted as Mechanical Perfection would have some major influence over the 2022 M6.  I've tried the new M6 and actually prefer it the feeling to the MP.  

The MP is stunning, beautiful to hold, and almost perfect in every way, but feels like jewel you don't want to mark up especially the black paint which I love.  The M6 with the matte scratch resistant black paint, the grippier leatherette and advance lever feels more tactile and urban.  The new M6 I could see throwing in a bag or get a bit grungy with it while not worrying so much.  Perhaps thats always been the appeal of the M6. 

Also reality is film cameras especially Leica are gaining value on the second hand market, especially M6's. China is producing more film at cheaper prices to keep up with the resurgence of the medium.  Makes sense for Leica to capitalise on this and I think it's a good move, but let's see how the market takes to the M6 being the same price as the MP or MA.  That remains to be seen.

 

[Mikep996]

 IF my current experiment using my '85 M6 and trying some film shooting (for the first time in 20 years) is a huge success, and IF my 1985 M6's light meter stopped working I'd just have to trade in my M10 and buy one of the new-fangled M6s!     But that second "IF" is the big one!  🤔

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[logan2z]

I'm not a buyer for the new M6 as I prefer unmetered cameras and I already own three Leica film Ms.  But I applaud Leica for bringing out a new film camera in 2022 and I hope they sell a ton of them.

If nothing else, this release sends a clear message that Leica is still committed to supporting film photography for many years to come.  And that's music to my ears. 

[delta100]

May be its time for a re issue M9 from Leica