NonFiction Posted September 16, 2007 Share #1 Posted September 16, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Okay, I'm about to spring for the next level in imaging capability. Maybe 5D, maybe M8 As a longtime Canon DSLR shooter (1.3x and 1.6x bodies), I have been hemming and hawing about buying a 5D or a 1DsMkII. But I'm also a longtime Leica M user, and it looks like the M8 is pretty much through its teething problems. I'm hoping somebody can walk me through the learning curve in the M8 in use however. I'm talking about what will it take to get a reliable color workflow set up with this thing? I had a DMR for a little while, and I wasn't able to get great colors out of it with CS2. I'm far from a master at color workflow, but I can reliably make reasonably faithful colors come out of my Canons. I am aware that if I'd worked harder at it, I could have from the DMR as well. And that bit of hard work is just what I'm asking about here. I see in lots of M8 pictures online, the same kind of weird salmony reds that bugged me with the DMR, and fantasy sky blues too. I also see a fair number that just look gorgeous. Right now I'm basically to-ing and fro-ing between the M8 and the 5D, with the M8 getting major points because of ultimate image quality, compactness, and that Leica M-ness that's unquantifiable but powerful. The Canon scoress because I know how to use it, it's cheaper, and it won't make me buy a bunch of new lenses. In truth, my main concern is what and how long it'll take me to get up to speed with the M8. Can somebody who's made the same jump please let me know how the process went for you? I don't need to be sold on how wonderful the camera is, but rather I would like to go in with my eyes open: Is the payoff of shooting the M8 going to be worth the tradeoff in convenience by introducing a whole new imaging system to my workflow? Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 16, 2007 Posted September 16, 2007 Hi NonFiction, Take a look here Talk to me about the learning curve: DSLR->M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted September 16, 2007 Share #2 Posted September 16, 2007 I moved from a Canon 5D to an M8. I bought the M8 in January I haven't used the 5D since, so I'm a little biased. To be honest if you've never used a rangefinder camera before I think getting used to the rangefinder way of viewing the world and focussing _may_ take a while. I'd used an M6 for several years, so the M8 was a welcome homecoming. As for colours, that's down to post processing and the general experience of the user. The M8 is capable of very good colour rendition IMHO. It's certainly not something I've ever worried about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted September 16, 2007 Share #3 Posted September 16, 2007 I also moved from 5D to M8 and am also biased. I have found in the past that CS2 was far from the best tool for the job, and ended up using Lightroom. Capture 1 (full version or LE) probably give the best results, but have a weird workflow which would take some time to adjust to. I would recommend going to your dealer with an SD card, taking some pictures, downloading Lightroom and playing around for the afternoon. Ultimately, only you can answer this question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 16, 2007 Share #4 Posted September 16, 2007 Scott, I agree with the basis of Steve's remarks. I have come from a background of Nikon, Hasselblad (prime camera for most of my working life) and latterly, Leica. 3 - M film bodies for about 6 years and now the M8. The M8 has superceded all my 15 - 20 cameras. I now only use the film cameras for personal work. The M8 is a dream to work with, but it is only the first link in the chain of producing an image. Mastering the camera simply puts you in the position of dealing with the file produced. Here, the choices (& opinions) are multiple. That of course is true for all digicams. The greates skill, IMHO, is mastering the software (after choosing it!). All the results yuo are viewing on the net are a mix of camera/software/ taste/etc. all of which vary. I suggest to you that the biggest variable for you is going to be the choice and use of software. The Canon you are considering is, I believe, excellent. So to is the M8. They ergonomically satisfy quite different styles, which you must consider. If you do a lot of tele work, the Canon is probably the go. Standard and wide work will give the M8 the edge. Precise framing will direct you back to the DSLR dept., whereas compactness and portability will put you in the M8 camp. And so it goes on! If you post some more details of your specific photographic interests, you will pick up more precise advice. Good luck with it, and enjoy the experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 16, 2007 Share #5 Posted September 16, 2007 I had a DMR for a little while, and I wasn't able to get great colors out of it with CS2... ...I'm far from a master at color workflow, but I can reliably make reasonably faithful colors come out of my Canons. I am aware that if I'd worked harder at it, I could have from the DMR as well. And that bit of hard work is just what I'm asking about here.... ...I see in lots of M8 pictures online, the same kind of weird salmony reds that bugged me with the DMR, and fantasy sky blues too. I also see a fair number that just look gorgeous.... The problem wasn't your DMR or hard work, you simply had the wrong raw processor. There are no salmony reds or fantasy blue skies with the DMR. CS2 was probably one of the least desirable raw processors for DMR files, with Capture One Pro being the most desirable. This has been covered extensively on many hefty threads in the past. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arif Posted September 16, 2007 Share #6 Posted September 16, 2007 I moved from the Nikon D200 to the M8 and have really started to enjoy my photography again. It has been a challenge for me to resist going back to DSLR for events especially where I was in the habit of capturing unusual angles by using the DSLR camera's autofocus capabilities. Although I can now do that using hypofocal distances but I am still wondering if I will miss zooms. I love the freedom of carrying a very small body and just a lens or two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwolf Posted September 16, 2007 Share #7 Posted September 16, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Scott, I don't think you will experience much of a learning curve at all. When I moved from 5D to M8, the biggest adjustments were manual focus and the rangefinder. But you're an M user already, so no issues there. I'm sure you know that M8 framing is weak compared to DSLRs. As for color, if you shoot RAW and color balance in whatever software you use, there's no issue there either. The issues surrounding lens coding, IR filters, and cyan drift correction are a bit confusing at first. But there's plenty of sound information on this forum and elsewhere. I really believe any experienced photographer will feel comfortable and confident (and in love) with the M8 very quickly, whatever hardware background they come from. It's such a welcome return to simplicity. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveB Posted September 16, 2007 Share #8 Posted September 16, 2007 The M8 is the most straight-forward digital I've ever used. Post-processing is another matter... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 16, 2007 Share #9 Posted September 16, 2007 Scott after i read the part about the DMR and colors i am wondering more importantly about the look of the files that you are concerned about. First the DMR is probably one of the few camera's and raw processing that the image looks really good out of the box. Now the reason i am asking this is the DMR is very Kodachrome looking , contrasty, saturated and pretty vivd colors compared to a canon image out of the box becuase the Canons take a little more work in general to get that kind of Kodachrome feel to the images. Now if this is the case than I suggest trying some raw processing with the 5D images and the M8 images and see what you are looking for. Just a quick side CS# and ACR 4.00 do have a magenta cast to them or maybe better said lean towards the magenta side and C1 leans more to a warmer look . All this can be adjusted but you need to know which way they lean. Now as far as camera since you shoot the M series already than it would be natural to look at the M8 and it is a great tool and myself personally i love this setup but it does have long lens limits and all the stuff you know the M system has but if you can deal with that than i highly recommend it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoran Milich Posted September 16, 2007 Share #10 Posted September 16, 2007 Scott, if you are going to have one camera only then go with the 5D. I use the 1ds Mark II when I want to make digital 6x6 blad like 50 mg files, the 1dn Mark II as a camera to place on a canon 500mm IS lens, a black taped up 5D when I need speed and being low key, and a black taped up M8 that fills in the blanks and is always ALWAYS at my side no matter where I go or what I do. The M8 is also always a second camera while working with the big Canon D's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonFiction Posted September 16, 2007 Author Share #11 Posted September 16, 2007 The M8 is the most straight-forward digital I've ever used. Post-processing is another matter... ...Could you please elaborate upon this DaveB? This precisely is my concern, and I want to understand the process of getting the process down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm23221 Posted September 16, 2007 Share #12 Posted September 16, 2007 I had a 1Ds Mark II that I recently sold in favor of the M8. I believe the learning curve was longer for the 1DsII than for the M8. The M8 is a very simple and straightforward camera to use and one doesn't have to plow through menu trees or push simultaneous buttons to change a function. Because of its simplicity in design my photos seem to be better composed and even better exposed ( I use manual a lot). You'll master the rangefinder in a very short time if you've mastered a complex camera in the past. Your end result (colors) are mostly dependent on your post-processing skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted September 16, 2007 Share #13 Posted September 16, 2007 Hi Scott. I moved from Nikon to the M8. I'm using Lightroom to post-process, and an Epson Photo R2400 as output. My experience is that as long as you're shooting RAW (thereby sidestepping the M8's unreliable auto-WB) this combination works extremely well. I've calibrated my MacBook Pro's monitor using Apple's own little utility – nothing expensive or complicated – and I've set up Lightroom with the appropriate ICC profiles for the printer, which I downloaded from Epson's website. If you use a third-party paper (or of course another printer!), it's worth doing the same for that (eg, Lyson and Hahnemuhle both offer free ICC profiles for their stuff). It's all a couple of hours of setup, but it sounds like it'll be familiar territory to you, and the results are very accurate, wide-gamut colours. I'm impressed. Three years ago colour balancing was a nightmare for the amateur. It seems to have got a lot simpler recently. Even Lightroom seems to be handling colour accuracy far better than it did in its release version, though maybe I'm misremembering there. However, I would recommend sticking with ICC profiles and allowing ColorSync to do the hard work for you, rather than trying to balance everything up manually. (Incidentally, this is all Mac-specific; apologies (and, I guess, condolences) if you're on a PC, though I'm sure the principles apply.) Overally, then, the learning curve for colour fidelity is more to do with your software than your source camera – you'll have the same issues whether you go for the M8 or the 5D – but I for one haven't found it a rough ride at all, and I suspect that's because the software's matured adequately in the past few years, since so many "prosumers" are trying to get colour profiling sorted on their home systems. It used to be a dark art; now it does seem to be becoming more and more transparent. Good luck! Let us know which way you jump... (As a PS, I'd strongly suggest that you mentally factor in having to send your M8 back to Germany for a set-up at least once. Hopefully you'll be lucky and not need to, but if you have that in your head before you buy, at least you won't be disappointed if it becomes necessary. It's not all doom and gloom, though: once it's working, it's really, really good fun.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 16, 2007 Share #14 Posted September 16, 2007 Hi Scott, I have a Canon 5D and several L lenses. I use the 5D with the 300/f2.8 or the 70-200/f4. For everything else I use the Leica. I only shoot RAW on both cameras. The Leica images need far less sharpening than the 5D images. For PP I use Canon's DPP and for the Leica Capture1. I prefer to use these relatively simple RAW converters and then do any other PP in PS. For me Capture1 gives the most accurate colours and detailed images. It is easy to learn and use, but the first hour can be a bit frustrating and it has some different ways of doing things. It has colour management with Leica M8 profiles. The two cameras give a similar quality of file and the M8 10mp is certainly the equal (or better) of the 5D's 13mp. The importance of the Leica being much less obtrusive than the 5D should not be under estimated. Hope this helps Jeff PS get a silver chrome one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Flatline Posted September 16, 2007 Share #15 Posted September 16, 2007 I went from 5D to M8 in Jan, and only pick up the SLR to shoot something that needs auto-focus, like hyper-sugary toddlers. They are both great cameras. To me, this is a hobby, and the M8 is just... cooler. It makes photography a much more deliberate process. The learning curve isn't that steep - you've had Rangefinders before, and you've developed RAW files. So the curve will be mild and short. Yes, it's fun to add a system to your workflow. Have fun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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