Leica M5 v.s. M6 v.s. M10

[KenLW]

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16 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Anyway with M10 as "backup", those are just "dessert" ( MDa/M2/3/4/5/6/LTM/etc.) when I fancy using film again.

I feel like after discussing my choices here and thinking about them more carefully, I only have one decision left:

Should I get the M6 or M10 right now if I only have the budget for one? I will definitely pickup the other one later regardless of which one I pick first. (Sorry! I will consider M5 as an additional camera if I get both M6 and M10.)

Logically, the M10 should be the first camera to learn the rope and experiment with different lens. The M10 would also be more versatile for different lighting conditions throughout the day and night when traveling. And I could make the M10 photography experience close to M6 by doing manual controls. (After writing down this part, I really feel grateful that companies like Leica are keeping the manual controls alive with intuitive button layout similar to the old film camera.)

The decision for me is really down to film v.s. digital as the final image now. I am fine with spending money buying film because I prefer the color, contrast, and granularity of film, but there are really cases I wish I had a digital M camera. For example, I did some traveling last week, and had to block the line and ask the TSA agent to hand check my films which might not always be possible if I travel to a different country where I don't know the language or there is a very long line. Also, I did not bring enough film stocks with me so I ended up with taking photos using iPhone. Not mention to I accidentally exposed one roll of film which I have not done for more than a decade.

So M10 for main course and M6 for dessert? Alternatively, if I buy a M6 first, I will probably pick up a cheap / older Sony A7 as my digital backup camera for traveling. I can get one of those M adapter so I only need to carry M lens. Speak of traveling, I think the Leica CL is even a better travel companion to the M10 than M6. It is smaller and lighter and cheap enough that I won't cry if lose it (I will cry for the film and lens attached to it though)

Edited August 9, 2022 by KenLW

[madNbad]

The only thing I use my digital camera for is to scan the negatives made with my film cameras but if I was in your position, I would buy the M10. If you're passing through airports and traveling, the M10 will give you instant images and no worries about scanners. There are a lot of M mount lenses available at a variety of price points and once you have the lenses, it's easy enough to add a film body later. With the M10, you'll be able to see if you like rangefinder photography and how to best handle the camera. Owning an older Sony, they're a fine camera but the battery life stinks in both the A7 and the A7II. The A7III's often have shutter problems, stick with the M10. Since you already own a couple of film cameras, use them for a while and learn about using film. Good luck and hopefully you learned a few things. 

P.S. When you're ready for a film Leica, get a M4.

[KenLW]

6 minutes ago, madNbad said:

The only thing I use my digital camera for is to scan the negatives made with my film cameras but if I was in your position, I would buy the M10. If you're passing through airports and traveling, the M10 will give you instant images and no worries about scanners. There are a lot of M mount lenses available at a variety of price points and once you have the lenses, it's easy enough to add a film body later. With the M10, you'll be able to see if you like rangefinder photography and how to best handle the camera. Owning an older Sony, they're a fine camera but the battery life stinks in both the A7 and the A7II. The A7III's often have shutter problems, stick with the M10. Since you already own a couple of film cameras, use them for a while and learn about using film. Good luck and hopefully you learned a few things. 

P.S. When you're ready for a film Leica, get a M4.

Thank you for the advice! Yeah, the best order seems to be M10 -> more lens -> some M film camera. I can use my Minolta in the meantime. And if I decide to use the M10 as my main camera, I will probably be less picky about getting a film Leica with built-in light meters because I would only use the film one occasionally and in settings that wouldn't require fast adjustments. Then M4 would be a great choice!

[nicci78]

M10 will be better for learning rangefinder photography. 
Instant feedback is the key. 
Once mastered, go for M6. 

A used M10 is also cheaper :  no cost of ownership. Buy it now then sell it in 1 or 2 years for almost the same price. Consider it as a free rental. 

I think that M6 prices is going down, due to economy. So no rush to buy one. However cost of ownership will skyrocket. Film is getting more and more expensive. We are far from peak price. 
 

[ktmrider2]

I have grave doubts if any digital will sell in two years what you pay for it today, even if it is a Leica.  And I am not convinced that film photography is more expensive than digital. 

If you look at the total cost of digital including computers and other electronic devices and depreciation on digital cameras compared with the increasing prices for film cameras (besides the MA/MP who is making film bodies anymore?), digital could be more expensive than analogue.  Like taxes, it depends on how you figure costs.  I am amazed at the technology avialable with instant results, emailing imagines and other features of digital.  But I learned using film and that is where my heart is.  And things I see people saying are the advantages of film like making you slow down or enjoying getting your images back from the processor are how it has always been for me so I don't see that as anything new.

I sold my digital Leica last year along with two film M's.  I am resisting the urge to buy more bodies (film or digital) as I can't justify my lack of using them.  I am not discouraging others from owning as many as they want but for myself a mint film body with 35/50/90 is all I need.  I know I have too many cameras when it takes me days to decide what equipment to take when I travel.  My digital requirements are met with a X100F and film with either Leica M, Nikon F or even a Rollie.  My concern for my next trip (motorcycling to Tierra del Fuego) is taking cheaper (FujiX100f vs M4) due to concerns of theft or loss.  It is the same reason I am riding a 14 year old BMW with 95000 miles and not a new Harley worth five times as much.  

I have owned all the M cameras you are looking at.  The M5 is great but evokes either love or hate.  Most of the film M users who don't like the M5 have never used one and don't like to admit that the Leica gods spent over ten years in R&D on the M5.  It did not sell well because it was up against SLR's like the Nikon F or Canon F1 and Leica helped cut its own throat at the time by selling the CL for less than half the cost.  Remember, the CL had the same metering system as the M5 but was both smaller and cheaper.  Both the M5 and M6 are great cameras.  It is too bad Leica never produced a spot meter like the M5 had in a body the size of an M6.  Both are Leica's and provide the "Leica Rangefinder" experience.  The M10 is nice and modern but if I want to shoot digital I want a bit more technology and Fuji provides it.

Good luck with your decision.  You won't go wrong with whatever choice you make and since we are talking Leica you will not lose any money if you change your mind in the near future.

[madNbad]

11 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

I have grave doubts if any digital will sell in two years what you pay for it today, even if it is a Leica.  And I am not convinced that film photography is more expensive than digital. 

If you look at the total cost of digital including computers and other electronic devices and depreciation on digital cameras compared with the increasing prices for film cameras (besides the MA/MP who is making film bodies anymore?), digital could be more expensive than analogue.  Like taxes, it depends on how you figure costs.  I am amazed at the technology avialable with instant results, emailing imagines and other features of digital.  But I learned using film and that is where my heart is.  And things I see people saying are the advantages of film like making you slow down or enjoying getting your images back from the processor are how it has always been for me so I don't see that as anything new.

I sold my digital Leica last year along with two film M's.  I am resisting the urge to buy more bodies (film or digital) as I can't justify my lack of using them.  I am not discouraging others from owning as many as they want but for myself a mint film body with 35/50/90 is all I need.  I know I have too many cameras when it takes me days to decide what equipment to take when I travel.  My digital requirements are met with a X100F and film with either Leica M, Nikon F or even a Rollie.  My concern for my next trip (motorcycling to Tierra del Fuego) is taking cheaper (FujiX100f vs M4) due to concerns of theft or loss.  It is the same reason I am riding a 14 year old BMW with 95000 miles and not a new Harley worth five times as much.  

I have owned all the M cameras you are looking at.  The M5 is great but evokes either love or hate.  Most of the film M users who don't like the M5 have never used one and don't like to admit that the Leica gods spent over ten years in R&D on the M5.  It did not sell well because it was up against SLR's like the Nikon F or Canon F1 and Leica helped cut its own throat at the time by selling the CL for less than half the cost.  Remember, the CL had the same metering system as the M5 but was both smaller and cheaper.  Both the M5 and M6 are great cameras.  It is too bad Leica never produced a spot meter like the M5 had in a body the size of an M6.  Both are Leica's and provide the "Leica Rangefinder" experience.  The M10 is nice and modern but if I want to shoot digital I want a bit more technology and Fuji provides it.

Good luck with your decision.  You won't go wrong with whatever choice you make and since we are talking Leica you will not lose any money if you change your mind in the near future.

I’m the one who picked the M6 TTL Millennium as the best built Leica ever but the M10 may be the best choice for the OP at this time. Needs are very different depending where you are in life. When you are working and free time is at a premium, use the tool that will maximize your available time. When life slows down, pick up the interest there wasn’t time for earlier. Owning a Leica is more about the lenses than the bodies they’re mounted on. Lenses bought for the M10 today will work great on a MA when you have the time to enjoy it. 

[KenLW]

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24 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

I have grave doubts if any digital will sell in two years what you pay for it today, even if it is a Leica.  And I am not convinced that film photography is more expensive than digital. 

If you look at the total cost of digital including computers and other electronic devices and depreciation on digital cameras compared with the increasing prices for film cameras (besides the MA/MP who is making film bodies anymore?), digital could be more expensive than analogue.  Like taxes, it depends on how you figure costs.  I am amazed at the technology avialable with instant results, emailing imagines and other features of digital.  But I learned using film and that is where my heart is.  And things I see people saying are the advantages of film like making you slow down or enjoying getting your images back from the processor are how it has always been for me so I don't see that as anything new.

I sold my digital Leica last year along with two film M's.  I am resisting the urge to buy more bodies (film or digital) as I can't justify my lack of using them.  I am not discouraging others from owning as many as they want but for myself a mint film body with 35/50/90 is all I need.  I know I have too many cameras when it takes me days to decide what equipment to take when I travel.  My digital requirements are met with a X100F and film with either Leica M, Nikon F or even a Rollie.  My concern for my next trip (motorcycling to Tierra del Fuego) is taking cheaper (FujiX100f vs M4) due to concerns of theft or loss.  It is the same reason I am riding a 14 year old BMW with 95000 miles and not a new Harley worth five times as much.  

I have owned all the M cameras you are looking at.  The M5 is great but evokes either love or hate.  Most of the film M users who don't like the M5 have never used one and don't like to admit that the Leica gods spent over ten years in R&D on the M5.  It did not sell well because it was up against SLR's like the Nikon F or Canon F1 and Leica helped cut its own throat at the time by selling the CL for less than half the cost.  Remember, the CL had the same metering system as the M5 but was both smaller and cheaper.  Both the M5 and M6 are great cameras.  It is too bad Leica never produced a spot meter like the M5 had in a body the size of an M6.  Both are Leica's and provide the "Leica Rangefinder" experience.  The M10 is nice and modern but if I want to shoot digital I want a bit more technology and Fuji provides it.

Good luck with your decision.  You won't go wrong with whatever choice you make and since we are talking Leica you will not lose any money if you change your mind in the near future.

Thank you for your interesting stories and advice! I have less concerns about the price of the films (at least for now) because as you said, you don't pay the "tax" of depreciating digital camera. With that said, a digital M would be a good platform to experiment with many images at a lower cost and get feedback immediately. Like many folks here, once I walk the path of digital M, I will be better informed about my future M digital or film buying decision.

I actually have a X100T and used it for pretty much the same reason as you on trips with potential theft issues. I also carried it for hikes because it was pocketable and I don't mind damaging it. However, it has been collecting dust for a long time because the newer iPhones are quite good at take both videos and photos in HDR.

[KenLW]

13 minutes ago, madNbad said:

I’m the one who picked the M6 TTL Millennium as the best built Leica ever but the M10 may be the best choice for the OP at this time. Needs are very different depending where you are in life. When you are working and free time is at a premium, use the tool that will maximize your available time. When life slows down, pick up the interest there wasn’t time for earlier. Owning a Leica is more about the lenses than the bodies they’re mounted on. Lenses bought for the M10 today will work great on a MA when you have the time to enjoy it. 

Haha! Nice! I would probably not use the M6 TTL Millennium that often and just put it on a shelf if I have one. And I am eager to try out different old lens! 

[Fotoklaus]

Am 7.8.2022 um 11:15 schrieb Topsy:

I have a brass top M4-P it isn't as smooth as either my MP or M2.

I have a silky smooth M2. It is the most used camera in my collection. After that follows my M6, very smooth. Then a M4-2 a M4 and the M3.

The M3 is the least used one, almost in new condition and the least smooth one. So in my opinion it is a matter of usage and not of the model.

If a camera is almost buttery it is perhaps almost worn out, so be careful with "smooth".

M4-2, M4-P, M6 and the MP are using the same steel gears. The last complete brass one was the M4.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Fotoklaus

[KenLW]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:59 PM, Fotoklaus said:

I have a silky smooth M2. It is the most used camera in my collection. After that follows my M6, very smooth. Then a M4-2 a M4 and the M3.

The M3 is the least used one, almost in new condition and the least smooth one. So in my opinion it is a matter of usage and not of the model.

If a camera is almost buttery it is perhaps almost worn out, so be careful with "smooth".

M4-2, M4-P, M6 and the MP are using the same steel gears. The last complete brass one was the M4.

I will probably get the M4 at some point just for the brass top. 

[KenLW]

Thank you so much for all of your inputs! I ordered a M10 and one voigtlander 35mm f2 ultron II. That should be enough for me to get start. Depending on my experience with the M10, I might add a film M or a 50mm lens in a few month.  

[madNbad]

1 hour ago, KenLW said:

Thank you so much for all of your inputs! I ordered a M10 and one voigtlander 35mm f2 ultron II. That should be enough for me to get start. Depending on my experience with the M10, I might add a film M or a 50mm lens in a few month.  

Good choice for the lens! For several years my only lens was a 35 2.0 Summicron ASPH. First on a M6 TTL and the on a M6 TTL Millennium. Everything was sold to raise funds for a necessary project. Shortly after I bought the M4, Voigtlander introduced the 35 2.0 Ultron ASPH. I was as happy with the Voigtlander as I was with the Summicron. Earlier this year, I traded the V1 and moved to the V2.still the favorite lens in my bag. You have a great combination, post a lot of photos and drop in and visit the analog page on occasion. 

[KenLW]

43 minutes ago, madNbad said:

Good choice for the lens! For several years my only lens was a 35 2.0 Summicron ASPH. First on a M6 TTL and the on a M6 TTL Millennium. Everything was sold to raise funds for a necessary project. Shortly after I bought the M4, Voigtlander introduced the 35 2.0 Ultron ASPH. I was as happy with the Voigtlander as I was with the Summicron. Earlier this year, I traded the V1 and moved to the V2.still the favorite lens in my bag. You have a great combination, post a lot of photos and drop in and visit the analog page on occasion. 

I will post some photos for sure! I know this is a Leica forum but before I get my Leica M10 to work, let me leave with a recent photo of an old SAAB I discovered sitting next to a falafel shop (I assume the other one is a SAAB as well?). I took it with my X700 and Ilford hp5 plus 400. May photography take you to unexpected places and discoveries! 

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[madNbad]

Here's another old SAAB, New Hope, Pennsylvania summer 1975, Nikon FTn, Tri-X:

 

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[LocalHero1953]

Both look like the Saab 96 V4. We owned a 1974 model from around 1976 till 1988. Good performers for a saloon car of its era with that boxer engine. Economical as well: they had an optional free wheel mechanism that disengaged engine braking to save fuel when you took your foot of the accelerator - great for rolling downhill (though I inadvertently picked up a speeding ticket in town doing just that).

[MarkP]

5 hours ago, madNbad said:

Here's another old SAAB, New Hope, Pennsylvania summer 1975, Nikon FTn, Tri-X:

 

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Even in 1975 it looked OLD.

[LocalHero1953]

40 minutes ago, MarkP said:

Even in 1975 it looked OLD.

The design was very similar from the Saab 92 (1949) onwards. Along with the VW Beetle, and Porsche 356 (and later 911), the swept over roof and tail was a popular style.

[LocalHero1953]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Both look like the Saab 96 V4. We owned a 1974 model from around 1976 till 1988. Good performers for a saloon car of its era with that boxer engine.

Just re-read my daft post, but too late to edit. It really was a V4, not a boxer design. I confused it with the car we sold the Saab V4 to buy: a Subaru 1.8 Turbo Coupe, which had a boxer engine.

[KenLW]

Haha! I am glad I turned this post into a Saab identification thread!

On the topic of cars, I got my M10 + 35 2.0 Ultron II and found this Ford Anglia so I had to take a picture with my camera setup!

Also, I am glad am using a digital rangefinder. It took me several shots to get my focus right. I can't imagine how to practice this on a film camera. I have high respect for those of you who started with film M cameras.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

4 hours ago, KenLW said:

It took me several shots to get my focus right. I can't imagine how to practice this on a film camera. I have high respect for those of you who started with film M cameras.

Something may be wrong, Ken.

Can you check if the RF on your M10 is accurate with your lens.

In this distance, if the curve of field (or other "errors" wide open) from the lens in use allows, the RF accuracy must be far better than SLR or mirrorless ...

I'd also ask if you see clearly the RF patch.