Film advance issue (MP)

[grahamc]

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Hello everyone

I had a film advance issue today that I’ve not experienced before and wanted to ask people’s opinion 

I had multiple rolls that got to the “end” of the roll, only for me to experience that heart sinking feeling that I have an endless roll on the camera - ie film had not been advancing. 
 

The strange thing is I didn’t change anything from normal when I loaded the films and I’ve never had a problem.  After 2 rolls like this I kept the baseplate off the camera while I wound on the first few frames, and sure enough the film was winding on. 
 

Because I’d seen the film winding on I didn’t check that the rewind knob was turning during the roll, thinking there was no need. 
 

When I rewound the films it felt really there was no resistance at all but when I removed the baseplate sure enough the film was rewound all the way into the canister 

All a bit strange  -what are the chances of there being any images on these rolls ? I think slim but I will try !

any ideas greatfully received

i use my M6 more often so user-error isn’t out of the question but all a bit odd I’ve put plenty of film through this camera also  

 

cheers
g

 

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[ianman]

I can’t help in your specific case. But after loading I always tighten the film by rewinding the rewind knob, I’m pretty sure if the film wasn’t catching on the sprockets I wouldn’t be able to do that. And yes, I often glance to make sure the red dots are turning when I recock.

sorry to say that I would agree about there being not much chance of having on your films, or maybe 24 superimposed images!

[250swb]

Perhaps it depends on what you mean by 'the end of the roll', some rolls can go beyond 36 and do 40. That said there is a clutch in the film advance mechanism and if this starts slipping, typically towards the end of a roll, it can feel like there is endless film in the camera because it isn't advancing.

[grahamc]

3 hours ago, ianman said:

I can’t help in your specific case. But after loading I always tighten the film by rewinding the rewind knob, I’m pretty sure if the film wasn’t catching on the sprockets I wouldn’t be able to do that. And yes, I often glance to make sure the red dots are turning when I recock.

sorry to say that I would agree about there being not much chance of having on your films, or maybe 24 superimposed images!

Thanks Ian. 
 

I wish I’d checked for the dots. What I find really odd is that I’d confirmed that the roll was winding prior to closing the baseplate (sacrificing the first few frames to light in the process ).    Would that by default mean the dots were moving? 
 

Complete surprise for the roll to then “advance” way past 40. 
 

Agree it seems unlikely anything will be on these. Will endeavour to find out tomorrow

 

I’ll get into the habit of tightening the roll after loading on the MP.  I do that on my M6 

daaam ! 

Edited July 19, 2022 by grahamc

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Perhaps it depends on what you mean by 'the end of the roll', some rolls can go beyond 36 and do 40. That said there is a clutch in the film advance mechanism and if this starts slipping, typically towards the end of a roll, it can feel like there is endless film in the camera because it isn't advancing.

Thanks for this - it was way past 40 ie endless (if I had continued).  But clutch failure gives me some hope of images. 
 

What I thought quite strange is that rewinding there was no resistance but then the rolls were tidily fully rewound once I ejected them.

Only one of the rolls there was resistance very quickly then nothing (the courser type of resistance you feel when the film leader goes in right at the end of a rewind.  So quite safe so say there is nothing on that particular roll. 
 

Even stranger that between dud rolls (of which there was 4...!), I had run a complete test roll with the baseplate off for the whole roll - which successfully hit a hard stop at the end. Aswell as 1 random successful / normal roll.   But apart from those, 4 out of 6 with this issue. 
 

I’ve considered whether I’d perhaps left the rewind knob in the “up” position, and whether this would cause this outcome (Yes I assume)

transitioning from M6 that’s not impossible , although doesn’t explain why the first few frames advanced fine before closing the base 

ahhh well !

 

[grahamc]

Looking on the bright side - probably only looking at development costs on these rolls, not scans 😂

[grahamc]

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Finding cheap rolls of film to test this with is no mean feat in UK, or anywhere right now 😡

[Huss]

The only time I’ve had an issue with film advance is when I hadn’t followed Leica’s very simple instructions - indicated on that diagram on the camera base with the baseplate removed.

 

[Helge]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb grahamc:

…

The strange thing is I didn’t change anything from normal when I loaded the films and I’ve never had a problem.  After 2 rolls like this I kept the baseplate off the camera while I wound on the first few frames, and sure enough the film was winding on. 
 

Because I’d seen the film winding on I didn’t check that the rewind knob was turning during the roll, thinking there was no need. 
 

When I rewound the films it felt really there was no resistance at all but when I removed the baseplate sure enough the film was rewound all the way into the canister 

…

The whole Leica system works only as designed if you close the base plate after sticking the film into the tulip. If it does without closing, that would be luck or random from my point of view.

I had what you describe on my second film with my brand new MP, because I left the base plate open for the first advance steps.

From my point of view the film slips out of the tulip, explaining both, the problem itself and the easy rewind you did.

[grahamc]

5 hours ago, Huss said:

The only time I’ve had an issue with film advance is when I hadn’t followed Leica’s very simple instructions - indicated on that diagram on the camera base with the baseplate removed.

 

Thanks Huss I agree it is extremely simple, which is why I can’t understand having 4 out of 5 rolls in an afternoon with an error, after previously experiencing none 

It’s possible that after experiencing the issue with the first roll, my subsequent efforts to be sure the film was loaded “correctly” caused the later issues.

Seems unlikely because it is quite hard to go wrong but if that’s the case I’ll have to put it down to a (very) bad day !

it was swealtering heat

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by grahamc

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Helge said:

The whole Leica system works only as designed if you close the base plate after sticking the film into the tulip. If it does without closing, that would be luck or random from my point of view.

I had what you describe on my second film with my brand new MP, because I left the base plate open for the first advance steps.

From my point of view the film slips out of the tulip, explaining both, the problem itself and the easy rewind you did.

Thats hard to accept but very possibly true.
Although I’ve certainly advanced the first frame or 2 previously and had no issues.  Kind of hard to imagine the film slipping completely from the tulip after being intwined for 2 or 3 advances but again not impossible  

Definitely time to go back to basics and I’ll just have to make sure the dots are turning when i shoot today. (I don’t have a back up camera right now).  If something similar happens after all the indications of a successful load then there may be a problem. 
 

if all good today I’ll put it down to user error on the UK’s hottest day ever recorded 😌

[grahamc]

Thanks for everyone’s help here. 

Because I am impatient I have just run a test roll through the camera , with baseplate closed and advancing all 36/38 frames.  Taking up the slack of the film after winding , checking the dots were moving and successfully reaching a hard “stop” at the end of the roll. 
 

so my assessment at this point is that I had a genuine mis-loaded film for the first one ... which led me to make further mistakes on subsequent rolls in my efforts to “make sure”. Eg as Huss and Helge point out maybe advancing the first few frames with baseplate off can cause later issues. 
 

I’d thought that really unlikely but seems it could be the case.  Of course I feel stupid and lots of great images lost but you win some you lose some. I think I lost it a bit in the moment.  
 

From now on will be taking up the slack and checking the dots on every roll - this is a much better idea to “make sure” the film is loaded than what I was doing.  
 

Hard to admit but we live and learn ! 

Edited July 20, 2022 by grahamc

[250swb]

There are two ways to load the film, the quick way and the slow way. The quick way is to bung the film in, make sure the leader is in the petals of the take up spool and put the baseplate on, the tulip on the baseplate aligns the sprocket holes of the film with the gear teeth, that is all it does, it doesn't lock anything, it doesn't add tension, it is passive. The slow way is to put the leader into the take-up spool, push the film upwards so the sprocket holes and gear teeth engage, and wind on a couple of strokes, then put the baseplate on. Both ways work, neither makes you a better photographer or a worse photographer.

The gear teeth help the film through the camera and work in sync with the film advance lever. So at the moment the only thing I can think of is if you wound the film on a couple of strokes without also engaging the sprocket holes on the gear teeth, so when you put the baseplate on there was too much film tension around the take-up spool for the tulip to push the film up and engage with the gear teeth. Without the gear teeth to help the film through the camera after the first few frames you'd probably feel some initial resistance of the film buckling because the film wasn't square across the gate, but soon the clutch in the advance mechanism would kick in after detecting to much resistance. The result would be the feeling of freely advancing the film but with nothing happening. So it could simply be that you wound too many times onto the take-up spool without first engaging the gear teeth with the film, but it's just an idea.

[Mute-on]

2 hours ago, grahamc said:

Thanks for everyone’s help here. 

Because I am impatient I have just run a test roll through the camera , with baseplate closed and advancing all 36/38 frames.  Taking up the slack of the film after winding , checking the dots were moving and successfully reaching a hard “stop” at the end of the roll. 
 

so my assessment at this point is that I had a genuine mis-loaded film for the first one ... which led me to make further mistakes on subsequent rolls in my efforts to “make sure”. Eg as Huss and Helge point out maybe advancing the first few frames with baseplate off can cause later issues. 
 

I’d thought that really unlikely but seems it could be the case.  Of course I feel stupid and lots of great images lost but you win some you lose some. I think I lost it a bit in the moment.  
 

From now on will be taking up the slack and checking the dots on every roll - this is a much better idea to “make sure” the film is loaded than what I was doing.  
 

Hard to admit but we live and learn ! 

FYI I usually check for the moving dots at about the third frame, by which point they ought to be responding to film tension. However I have never ‘taken up the slack’ in a roll after loading. It is totally unnecessary. 

[maxfairclough]

14 hours ago, ianman said:

I can’t help in your specific case. But after loading I always tighten the film by rewinding the rewind knob, I’m pretty sure if the film wasn’t catching on the sprockets I wouldn’t be able to do that. And yes, I often glance to make sure the red dots are turning when I recock.

This is the way Graham. 

[maxfairclough]

11 hours ago, grahamc said:

Finding cheap rolls of film to test this with is no mean feat in UK, or anywhere right now 😡

Also another thing, I have found my MP has rejected some cheap repackaged film stocks. Some of the suppliers here that do repackaged kodak 250d for example, the film takes awhile to latch on. other regular film stocks like portra never had an issue.

[grahamc]

It’s a shame because it was quite an important day. I got used to taking up the slack and watching the lever rotate on my M6 but hadn’t gone through this process with my MP

the short story is I think i panicked a bit after the first misload (probably a genuine misload) and lost it a bit in my efforts. 
 

all this in the intense midday heat of the UK’s hottest day on record, which ironically I was trying to capture 😂😂

good news is I have plenty of shots from the morning. 
 

Real shame but I won’t make the same mistake again.  

 

Thankyou for everyone sharing interest

Edited July 20, 2022 by grahamc

[grahamc]

By the way even apart from this it was a really crazy day.   So quite fitting  

only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun, they say 😊

my MP was so hot but I think we can also rule that out now the likely reality  “problem” has been identified 

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[grahamc]

4 hours ago, 250swb said:

.

The gear teeth help the film through the camera and work in sync with the film advance lever. So at the moment the only thing I can think of is if you wound the film on a couple of strokes without also engaging the sprocket holes on the gear teeth, so when you put the baseplate on there was too much film tension around the take-up spool for the tulip to push the film up and engage with the gear teeth. Without the gear teeth to help the film through the camera after the first few frames you'd probably feel some initial resistance of the film buckling because the film wasn't square across the gate, but soon the clutch in the advance mechanism would kick in after detecting to much resistance. The result would be the feeling of freely advancing the film but with nothing happening. So it could simply be that you wound too many times onto the take-up spool without first engaging the gear teeth with the film, but it's just an idea.

I agree it does seem strange that the winding of a couple of strokes somehow led to the roll not completing successfully, because it’s certainly something I’ve done before without issue

happy to put this one down to heat and a bit of panic but it does seem quite odd.
 

will see if it happens again but if not then unfortunately user-error seems to be at play  

[ianman]

3 hours ago, Mute-on said:

However I have never ‘taken up the slack’ in a roll after loading. It is totally unnecessary. 

Each to his own of course but Leica don’t think it’s totally unnecessary. From the MP user manual “Then tense the film by carefully turning the pull-out rewind button (15) in the direction of the arrow.”