Film advance issue (MP)

[Mute-on]

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2 hours ago, ghunt said:

Hello Graham.

This is my first time posting on this forum.

I have a brand new MP and something very similar just happened to me. It is maybe the 10th roll I've shot on this camera. I got back to my hotel, Googled the issue, and ended up here.

First, let me say that I've been shooting a Leica M6 almost every day for the last 22 years. I shoot a lot. I am about as familiar, and comfortable, with loading film into an M body as you can be. Of course, an M6 is not an MP, but the process of threading and loading the film is essentially the same. I also instinctively watch to make sure the film is in the sprockets and winding onto the take up spool before putting on the bottom plate and then make sure the rewind knob is turning.

What happened: I was shooting today and nearing the end of a roll and didn't have a spare roll on me. So I was hyper aware of how many frames were left. I shot frame 36 and was still able to advance to another frame, which occasionally happens and is a happy bonus. But then after shooting that frame I was able to advance again. I looked at the red dots in and could see no turning or activity as I shot and advanced up above 40 frames, that's when I knew something was wrong.

I returned to my hotel, turned off the lights (it was pitch dark), and opened the bottom of the camera. I could feel with the tip of my finger that film was tightly wound onto the take-up spool, it's tricky to know how much, but it was quite a bit. I then opened the back of the camera and advanced the film but there was no movement in the film, the gears, or in the take up spool. I shot and advanced several times and nothing was moving or turning. So I closed up the camera and wound the exposed film back into the canister. It's hard to say how much film was shot, but it didn't feel like a full roll. Maybe 15-20 frames.

I then loaded a dummy roll into the camera, shot 36 frames, and it stopped as it should. I rewound and did this several times, both with the bottom plate on and off. I even tried the same thing on a different film stock (Portra, which was the roll I had the issue with). But I did not experience the issue again while testing.

I am aware that this of course could be a result of my somehow loading it incorrectly. HOWEVER, it is very clear to me that (1) I did shoot a good amount of frames on the roll, and (2) at some point the advancing of the film stopped. How could this be?? With the maybe 3000+ rolls I probably shot on my M6 I had my fair share of issues, but the ceasing of film advancing mid-roll never happened once.

I will not know until next week how many frames were exposed, and what they look like. Perhaps it is a clutch issue, as someone mentioned above? I did see a video of an M-A online that had a similar issue.

Thank you for any advice on this!

This issue of what sounds like slipping if the advance mechanism is most unusual, and certainly sounds like a camera issue, not user error. We have all experienced the very firm stop of the advance lever when the end of the roll us reached. It sounds as though the mechanism that facilitates the firm stop has given way. Even if temporary, this is obviously not normal behaviour, and should be investigated. 

[Pyrogallol]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:23 AM, Mute-on said:

FYI I usually check for the moving dots at about the third frame, by which point they ought to be responding to film tension. However I have never ‘taken up the slack’ in a roll after loading. It is totally unnecessary. 

I think that with the tulip type take up spool, taking up the slack can pull the leader out of the tulip. With the older spring clip take up spool you can feel the grip of the spring when you take up the slack.

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[Pyrogallol]

On 7/21/2022 at 5:50 AM, hdmesa said:

About as bad as what I did today, which was not pulling up the rewind knob far enough/firm enough. I opened the camera up with all the film still spooled over on the right side, exposing the entire roll. Maybe I will get some cool light leaks on this roll 😆😫

I always try to rewind the film as soon as I have got to the end, so that I can’t forget to do it later.

[grahamc]

22 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

I think that with the tulip type take up spool, taking up the slack can pull the leader out of the tulip. With the older spring clip take up spool you can feel the grip of the spring when you take up the slack.

Yes if you do it too early that can definitely happen . Gently does it also 

[robbie3]

Hi Graham, a few months back I bought a cosmetically nice condition used MP from a Leica dealer. 

Here's an example of the problem from the first roll I ran through it, after the usual sinking feeling on frame 40+.

Convinced it was my fault in loading the film incorrectly I tried a few test films with the bottom off after reading every thread I could find on the issue.

The film advance was slipping erratically and I could fully rewind the film at any time without touching the rewind switch.

The dealer took it back for a refund straight away as I was able to demonstrate the fault in the store.

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[analogM]

On 8/17/2022 at 3:55 PM, grahamc said:

Yes if you do it too early that can definitely happen . Gently does it also 

If the bottom plate is in place and the rewind lever is not set to 'R', it should not be possible to pull the film back out of the tulip.

[grahamc]

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18 hours ago, robbie3 said:

Hi Graham, a few months back I bought a cosmetically nice condition used MP from a Leica dealer. 

Here's an example of the problem from the first roll I ran through it, after the usual sinking feeling on frame 40+.

Convinced it was my fault in loading the film incorrectly I tried a few test films with the bottom off after reading every thread I could find on the issue.

The film advance was slipping erratically and I could fully rewind the film at any time without touching the rewind switch.

The dealer took it back for a refund straight away as I was able to demonstrate the fault in the store.

 

How interesting thanks, sorry to hear it though 

[ghunt]

Hi all.

In reference to my earlier post about an advance issue - so I processed the roll that had an issue and I'm not quite sure what's happening here, but in my 20 years of shooting a M daily I've never seen anything this. You can see that the "gap" between exposures progressively gets bigger, then smaller again, and at the end there are multiple exposures.

A loading issue? Or a camera issue? Has anyone seen this or do they have a theory of what's happening?

The rolls I shot directly after this roll are all fine and there's no sign of this issue.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I've shot an M6 daily for 20 years, and this is probably my 10th roll with the MP. I'm so very familiar with the loading, as it's essentially the same, but perhaps I did something wrong here.

Let me know what you think and thanks!!

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Edited August 28, 2022 by ghunt

[250swb]

5 hours ago, ghunt said:

Hi all.

In reference to my earlier post about an advance issue - so I processed the roll that had an issue and I'm not quite sure what's happening here, but in my 20 years of shooting a M daily I've never seen anything this. You can see that the "gap" between exposures progressively gets bigger, then smaller again, and at the end there are multiple exposures.

A loading issue? Or a camera issue? Has anyone seen this or do they have a theory of what's happening?

The rolls I shot directly after this roll are all fine and there's no sign of this issue.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I've shot an M6 daily for 20 years, and this is probably my 10th roll with the MP. I'm so very familiar with the loading, as it's essentially the same, but perhaps I did something wrong here.

Let me know what you think and thanks!!

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I think it's gong to be a problem with the gears that engage with the sprocket holes, maybe slipping or the rewind lever not disengaging properly. For example does the rewind lever flip back up automatically as you advance the film to the first frame? But it does look like the film has been dragged through the camera without the gears being engaged to control the frame spacing, at some point near the end 'something happened' to change this.

[ghunt]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

I think it's gong to be a problem with the gears that engage with the sprocket holes, maybe slipping or the rewind lever not disengaging properly. For example does the rewind lever flip back up automatically as you advance the film to the first frame? But it does look like the film has been dragged through the camera without the gears being engaged to control the frame spacing, at some point near the end 'something happened' to change this.

Thank you. I was thinking these two things, or something as simple as me loading incorrectly and the gears never engaging in the sprocket holes from the beginning. The reason that I feel (or hope) that it is due to this is because all other rolls so far have been fine. It seems unlikely to me that the camera would do this only for one roll. But again, this has NEVER happened to me.

The rewind lever was flipping back to normal. 

Thanks so much again!

[Huss]

As all your other rolls since this one have been fine, I would chalk this up to an anomaly.  It could even have been a quality issue with the film itself.  I once bought film from Ultrafine which was so tightly wound it was a serious strain to advance it.  Stuff happens and I’d just keep an eye  on it.

[BKimelb1]

I am very good at loading film and had this issue too many times for it to be just written off to "user error"!!!  Pisses me off for the price point...mechanical perfection?

[plaidshirts]

On 9/1/2022 at 5:22 PM, BKimelb1 said:

I am very good at loading film and had this issue too many times for it to be just written off to "user error"!!!  Pisses me off for the price point...mechanical perfection?

My Canon F-1 does this twice every roll, where the gap is wider than usual. Everywhere else is normal.

However, it’s certainly easier to swallow with a $200 camera than something that costs 20+ times as much.