Film advance issue (MP)

[plaidshirts]

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3 hours ago, Mute-on said:

FYI I usually check for the moving dots at about the third frame, by which point they ought to be responding to film tension. However I have never ‘taken up the slack’ in a roll after loading. It is totally unnecessary. 

Unnecessary until you forget to check on the rewind knob later, because it doesn't move the first couple shots due to loose tension, only to belatedly realize that the film end has come off. I've lost too many great shots (at least in my mind 😄) that way. I do it not only with my Leicas but all the film cameras I use - for peace of mind.

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, plaidshirts said:

I do it not only with my Leicas but all the film cameras I use - for peace of mind.

I do the same.  The primary benefit to me is that I waste fewer frames per roll repeatedly advancing the film after loading and waiting for the rewind knob to rotate.

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[pedaes]

2 hours ago, logan2z said:

I do the same.  The primary benefit to me is that I waste fewer frames per roll repeatedly advancing the film after loading and waiting for the rewind knob to rotate.

As soon as you have the film on both sprockets, why don't you tension the film in the cassette before closing the back. You will then get instant response on the rewind knob.

[logan2z]

34 minutes ago, pedaes said:

As soon as you have the film on both sprockets, why don't you tension the film in the cassette before closing the back. You will then get instant response on the rewind knob.

I could do that.  But tensioning it after closing the back has the same effect. 

[pedaes]

2 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I could do that.  But tensioning it after closing the back has the same effect. 

I know,  it just adds confidence that all is good.

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, pedaes said:

I know,  it just adds confidence that all is good.

True, good suggestion.

[hdmesa]

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On 7/19/2022 at 12:19 PM, grahamc said:

Hello everyone

I had a film advance issue today that I’ve not experienced before and wanted to ask people’s opinion 

I had multiple rolls that got to the “end” of the roll, only for me to experience that heart sinking feeling that I have an endless roll on the camera - ie film had not been advancing. 
 

The strange thing is I didn’t change anything from normal when I loaded the films and I’ve never had a problem.  After 2 rolls like this I kept the baseplate off the camera while I wound on the first few frames, and sure enough the film was winding on. 
 

Because I’d seen the film winding on I didn’t check that the rewind knob was turning during the roll, thinking there was no need. 
 

When I rewound the films it felt really there was no resistance at all but when I removed the baseplate sure enough the film was rewound all the way into the canister 

All a bit strange  -what are the chances of there being any images on these rolls ? I think slim but I will try !

any ideas greatfully received

i use my M6 more often so user-error isn’t out of the question but all a bit odd I’ve put plenty of film through this camera also  

 

cheers
g

 

About as bad as what I did today, which was not pulling up the rewind knob far enough/firm enough. I opened the camera up with all the film still spooled over on the right side, exposing the entire roll. Maybe I will get some cool light leaks on this roll 😆😫

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

About as bad as what I did today, which was not pulling up the rewind knob far enough/firm enough. I opened the camera up with all the film still spooled over on the right side, exposing the entire roll. Maybe I will get some cool light leaks on this roll 😆😫

Ah I’m sorry to hear it !

I hope the photos turn out ok (or most of them )!

[grahamc]

17 hours ago, ianman said:

Each to his own of course but Leica don’t think it’s totally unnecessary. From the MP user manual “Then tense the film by carefully turning the pull-out rewind button (15) in the direction of the arrow.”

After my crappy experiences I definitely think this is well worth it, and then checking the dots are moving. 
 

this is the way I’m doing things from now on. 

in fact what I do with my M6 but just wasn’t used to doing so with my MP 

[grahamc]

So having loads 2 successful rolls today and having thought about this a lot (who wouldn’t after 4 missed rolls 😢) , we can conclude :

1. rolls that have been wound on a few frames with the baseplate off can, at least some of the time, then not properly engage/advance when the baseplate is then put on

While this seems odd (especially as I’d done this before and also had a successful roll in between the failures) it seems to be true as I ‘verified’ all those rolls this way.

2. safest way by far (IMO) is to do exactly as instructed, leave the start of the leader in the tulip, close and advance.  Best Verification IMHO is then taking up the slack (after advancing to frame “0”. and checking the dots are moving on the next advance (shooting first frame ). 

Believe it or not this wasn’t my first rodeo I’d been loading this camera successfully and as per instructions plenty enough with no problems at all.   

My guess is I missed the tulip on the first Misload, and then my big mistake was my “verification” method on the rolls after that. 

case (and baseplate) closed !!

still a small chance there was something  else happening but the above is where I’ve landed at  

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by grahamc

[105012]

I really love the M3 (and earlier) film load system because it cannot go wrong, total peace of mind. Once the film leader is inserted into the take up spool it has no choice but to advance. Most people probably will say they prefer faster but less reliable (check dots etc), but I prefer almost as fast and never check dots (etc). Each to their own...

[Huss]

30 minutes ago, 105012 said:

I really love the M3 (and earlier) film load system because it cannot go wrong, total peace of mind. Once the film leader is inserted into the take up spool it has no choice but to advance. Most people probably will say they prefer faster but less reliable (check dots etc), but I prefer almost as fast and never check dots (etc). Each to their own...

I have the M3, but also MP/M7/M-A etc.  Both are faultless with film loading as long as you just follow Leica's instructions.  Not some blogger on youtube trying to get likes/subscribes who has not paid attention to Leica's very simple instructions.

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

I have the M3, but also MP/M7/M-A etc.  Both are faultless with film loading as long as you just follow Leica's instructions.  Not some blogger on youtube trying to get likes/subscribes who has not paid attention to Leica's very simple instructions.

Indeed.  Going “off road” turned out to be a terrible idea .  Before the panic from my first accidental misload I was strictly by the book. 
 

Any ‘verification’ is then to check whether we as humans have not missed the tulip (rather than verification of Leica’s mechanics). 
 

Checking the dots are turning each time will pick that up earlier than frame “41”  

[105012]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

I have the M3, but also MP/M7/M-A etc.  Both are faultless with film loading as long as you just follow Leica's instructions.  Not some blogger on youtube trying to get likes/subscribes who has not paid attention to Leica's very simple instructions.

Me too, but I prefer the M3 system to the rapid loads, every time.

[Huss]

6 hours ago, 105012 said:

Me too, but I prefer the M3 system to the rapid loads, every time.

Definitely the M3's system is rock solid!

[grahamc]

Very unsurprisingly all 4 of these rolls were returned blank .  The only interesting thing was that one of them had 2 frames on it, that had been subjected to a lot of multiple exposures.  I wonder if this was the first roll that was misloaded before I completely lost my mind

Shame, although got some images of the day that I'm happy with .  I've posted some of them here :

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by grahamc

[aesop]

On 7/19/2022 at 10:43 PM, grahamc said:

Finding cheap rolls of film to test this with is no mean feat in UK, or anywhere right now 😡

    ...just saw this.

You can practise and hone your M-loading technique with cheap or 'non-cheap' 35mm film. Just remember to keep your lens or body cap on when you fire the shutter - that way, no light hits the film, which can then be rewound and put through the camera again and again (so long as you remember to leave the tongue out of the cannister when rewinding). Hope this helps.

    

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, aesop said:

    ...just saw this.

You can practise and hone your M-loading technique with cheap or 'non-cheap' 35mm film. Just remember to keep your lens or body cap on when you fire the shutter - that way, no light hits the film, which can then be rewound and put through the camera again and again (so long as you remember to leave the tongue out of the cannister when rewinding). Hope this helps.

    

Great thanks very much. I didn’t think of that  if If testing is ever needed again this will be very useful.  On this occasion I realised what I was doing wrong.

Thanks again 

 

[ghunt]

Hello Graham.

This is my first time posting on this forum.

I have a brand new MP and something very similar just happened to me. It is maybe the 10th roll I've shot on this camera. I got back to my hotel, Googled the issue, and ended up here.

First, let me say that I've been shooting a Leica M6 almost every day for the last 22 years. I shoot a lot. I am about as familiar, and comfortable, with loading film into an M body as you can be. Of course, an M6 is not an MP, but the process of threading and loading the film is essentially the same. I also instinctively watch to make sure the film is in the sprockets and winding onto the take up spool before putting on the bottom plate and then make sure the rewind knob is turning.

What happened: I was shooting today and nearing the end of a roll and didn't have a spare roll on me. So I was hyper aware of how many frames were left. I shot frame 36 and was still able to advance to another frame, which occasionally happens and is a happy bonus. But then after shooting that frame I was able to advance again. I looked at the red dots in and could see no turning or activity as I shot and advanced up above 40 frames, that's when I knew something was wrong.

I returned to my hotel, turned off the lights (it was pitch dark), and opened the bottom of the camera. I could feel with the tip of my finger that film was tightly wound onto the take-up spool, it's tricky to know how much, but it was quite a bit. I then opened the back of the camera and advanced the film but there was no movement in the film, the gears, or in the take up spool. I shot and advanced several times and nothing was moving or turning. So I closed up the camera and wound the exposed film back into the canister. It's hard to say how much film was shot, but it didn't feel like a full roll. Maybe 15-20 frames.

I then loaded a dummy roll into the camera, shot 36 frames, and it stopped as it should. I rewound and did this several times, both with the bottom plate on and off. I even tried the same thing on a different film stock (Portra, which was the roll I had the issue with). But I did not experience the issue again while testing.

I am aware that this of course could be a result of my somehow loading it incorrectly. HOWEVER, it is very clear to me that (1) I did shoot a good amount of frames on the roll, and (2) at some point the advancing of the film stopped. How could this be?? With the maybe 3000+ rolls I probably shot on my M6 I had my fair share of issues, but the ceasing of film advancing mid-roll never happened once.

I will not know until next week how many frames were exposed, and what they look like. Perhaps it is a clutch issue, as someone mentioned above? I did see a video of an M-A online that had a similar issue.

Thank you for any advice on this!

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[grahamc]

2 hours ago, ghunt said:

Hello Graham.

This is my first time posting on this forum.

I have a brand new MP and something very similar just happened to me. It is maybe the 10th roll I've shot on this camera. I got back to my hotel, Googled the issue, and ended up here.

First, let me say that I've been shooting a Leica M6 almost every day for the last 22 years. I shoot a lot. I am about as familiar, and comfortable, with loading film into an M body as you can be. Of course, an M6 is not an MP, but the process of threading and loading the film is essentially the same. I also instinctively watch to make sure the film is in the sprockets and winding onto the take up spool before putting on the bottom plate and then make sure the rewind knob is turning.

What happened: I was shooting today and nearing the end of a roll and didn't have a spare roll on me. So I was hyper aware of how many frames were left. I shot frame 36 and was still able to advance to another frame, which occasionally happens and is a happy bonus. But then after shooting that frame I was able to advance again. I looked at the red dots in and could see no turning or activity as I shot and advanced up above 40 frames, that's when I knew something was wrong.

I returned to my hotel, turned off the lights (it was pitch dark), and opened the bottom of the camera. I could feel with the tip of my finger that film was tightly wound onto the take-up spool, it's tricky to know how much, but it was quite a bit. I then opened the back of the camera and advanced the film but there was no movement in the film, the gears, or in the take up spool. I shot and advanced several times and nothing was moving or turning. So I closed up the camera and wound the exposed film back into the canister. It's hard to say how much film was shot, but it didn't feel like a full roll. Maybe 15-20 frames.

I then loaded a dummy roll into the camera, shot 36 frames, and it stopped as it should. I rewound and did this several times, both with the bottom plate on and off. I even tried the same thing on a different film stock (Portra, which was the roll I had the issue with). But I did not experience the issue again while testing.

I am aware that this of course could be a result of my somehow loading it incorrectly. HOWEVER, it is very clear to me that (1) I did shoot a good amount of frames on the roll, and (2) at some point the advancing of the film stopped. How could this be?? With the maybe 3000+ rolls I probably shot on my M6 I had my fair share of issues, but the ceasing of film advancing mid-roll never happened once.

I will not know until next week how many frames were exposed, and what they look like. Perhaps it is a clutch issue, as someone mentioned above? I did see a video of an M-A online that had a similar issue.

Thank you for any advice on this!

Hi @ghunt,

Thanks for taking the time to write.   This is curious and appreciate all the info .  

Interesting that you were able to test the rolls to advance to a hard stop (frame 38 let's say) with the baseplate off, as was I when I tested.    

Although as a quick aside, maybe it was my combination of starting the wind with baseplate off (checking it's winding on the spool), and then replacing the baseplate for the rest of the roll that caused me problems.    

I'm happy to put these rolls down to user error but actually that's completely irrelevant to my initial dud roll in which I followed the correct instructions as always, or at least intended to.  (It was only on the subsequent rolls that I probably sabotaged myself by trying to 'make sure') 

Anyway, returning to my more relevant original roll, and your own situation: I was never fully convinced that my first roll was loaded incorrectly, but accept that it could have been.   What I can update that the developed roll showed 2 frames, both of which looked like they had been subject to a lot of multiple exposures (i.e. a complete mess) 

Since then though, I've added a step taking up slack on each load:

1. Load leader into tulip, shut baseplate 

2. Wind on. Click shutter 

3. Very gently take up slack 

4. Wind on the film again (to '0' reading), whilst checking dots for rotation.

This way I've checked the dots before shooting the first real frame.  

Happy to report that I haven't had any issues since, so user-error may indeed have been the case for my first dud roll.  But it's always bugged me a little because as we all agree "it's not that hard" .

Interesting thing with yours is that you were checking the rotating dots and there seems to have been a slippage of some kind.  Hope it's a one off for you and please do keep us posted ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by grahamc