Help me choose the right M (M6/M6TTL/M7/MP)

[oldwino]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Handheld metering is quick and liberating. Meter once for the sunny side of the street. Meter again for the shady side of the street. Remember those two settings, and adjust your camera depending on which side of the street you’re on. 
Easy and quick. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[spydrxx]

Well, now you've had lots of good advice, dismissed some of it, hopefully absorbed enough to make a choice. Time to put your money where your mouth is and enjoy shooting and the subsequent darkroom activities. 

[jukka]

1 hour ago, oldwino said:

Handheld metering is quick and liberating. Meter once for the sunny side of the street. Meter again for the shady side of the street. Remember those two settings, and adjust your camera depending on which side of the street you’re on. 
Easy and quick. 

Now, I get this – I really do. But with an M7, and with an ND filter on your fast lens, by merely adjusting the aperture you get the depth of field that speaks to your artistic vision. And mind you, you can do this also on the sunny side of the street. That's what I call quick and liberating. 

[grahamc]

Hi

I have M6 (classic), M6 TTL and MP. 

I can confirm that turning the smaller shutter dial with index finger whilst looking through the viewfinder is a non-issue on M6 & MP. In fact I prefer these cameras, they are smaller and the form-factor just feels right. 
 

I love my TTL too, but the form-factor feels a bit large and clumsy by comparison - which is strange as it’s only a couple of mm taller. I know if I had only one M film body I’d certainly be happier with the smaller sized ones.   I do use TTL flash though regularly so much enjoy my TTL too

Regarding viewfinders, I’ve looked at these (or through them 😂) side by side and for sure the MP is noticeably better. Not only does it not white out, but the image in the viewfinder patch is marginally more contrasty. I’ve noticed this on a current travel trip where I have the M6 TTL and also MP. For images that count I am glad I have MP because it’s just that little bit easier to focus with confidence - let’s say in portraiture for example. 
 

By the way you might want to check our the Minolta CLE - an incredible camera that is light and the the metering capabilities are incredible, as it uses a full multi-area metering off the shutter curtain.  As much as I love using my M’s, some of my best exposures have come in Auto mode off the CLE.   The 40:2 , 28:2.8 and 90:4 are amazing. Not quite the joy to hold and use that the Leica M provides but perhaps worth looking at if you value great auto-exposure in a light and compact carry-everywhere camera.  
 

Overall presuming you are set on going with Leica and without auto-exposure I think the MP is really hard to beat, it’s the smoothest of mine in terms of winding the shutter on, has the nicest shutter button / sound experience and the viewfinder observations above make it a more effective tool than my others.  
 

If you are set on auto-exposure and want more lens choices than CLE will provide then I believe later M7’s were made with the MP viewfinder.     CLE viewfinder is not great when you compare it to Leica but man that is a lot of camera for much less money than we spend on Leica and will produce great images effortlessly. 
 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by grahamc

[Kreeshp]

20 hours ago, budjames said:

That said, I'm not sure why someone would spend a small fortune to buy a Leica M film body these days. To each their own, but you might want to consider a digital M for the convenience and image quality.

For someone that doesn't enjoy film photography anymore, you sure like to spend time reading and posting in a film M camera forum

As you stated, to each their own.  Photography isn't only about the end point of the highest quality image and the most convenient way to get there.  What about the shooting experience?  The mental planning leading up to the exposure?  If convenience and image quality were the only criteria when selecting a camera, why are you even shooting with a Leica?  Many other systems cost much less than the 'small fortune' that a digital Leica M body costs these days and produce an equal, if not better image quality.

The film versus digital debate is really old.  The choice of one over the other isn't rational, it's emotional, just like the choice of shooting with a Leica versus anything other platform.

Personally, I shoot with both digital and film Leicas and there is a distinct difference in shooting in each format.  When I am shooting for documentation purposes and want the 'best image quality' out comes the M10-P.  When I am shooting for fun and pure pleasure and want to exercise creativity to the fullest, the film cameras are deployed.  I realize with film the final image won't be the 'sharpest' but that is not what I am after in the end result.  I suspect that is true of others who shoot film.  YMMV.

[Matlock]

10 hours ago, grahamc said:

Hi

By the way you might want to check our the Minolta CLE - an incredible camera that is light and the the metering capabilities are incredible, as it uses a full multi-area metering off the shutter curtain.  As much as I love using my M’s, some of my best exposures have come in Auto mode off the CLE.   The 40:2 , 28:2.8 and 90:4 are amazing. Not quite the joy to hold and use that the Leica M provides but perhaps worth looking at if you value great auto-exposure in a light and compact carry-everywhere camera.  
 

If you are set on auto-exposure and want more lens choices than CLE will provide then I believe later M7’s were made with the MP viewfinder.     CLE viewfinder is not great when you compare it to Leica but man that is a lot of camera for much less money than we spend on Leica and will produce great images effortlessly. 
 

 

 

I have two Minolta CLEs and, as you say, they are fantastic little cameras. However both of mine are now showing their age. One locks up from time to time and the other sometimes suffers complete meter failure. Just be aware that these are now fairly old cameras. Still worth considering though.

[grahamc]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

46 minutes ago, Matlock said:

I have two Minolta CLEs and, as you say, they are fantastic little cameras. However both of mine are now showing their age. One locks up from time to time and the other sometimes suffers complete meter failure. Just be aware that these are now fairly old cameras. Still worth considering though.

Yes I agree.  Mine has been in for repair a couple of times also.  And also locks up.  When it does, if I give it a hardish knock with one hand on the top plate near the shutter winding lever, whilst simultaneously winding the leaver with the other hand, and the leaver will unlock.  I have never had to do this with my M6, M6 TTL or MP 😂

[Matlock]

5 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Yes I agree.  Mine has been in for repair a couple of times also.  And also locks up.  When it does, if I give it a hardish knock with one hand on the top plate near the shutter winding lever, whilst simultaneously winding the leaver with the other hand, and the leaver will unlock.  I have never had to do this with my M6, M6 TTL or MP 😂

That's exactly what I have to do.

[krylovsk]

11 hours ago, grahamc said:

I have M6 (classic), M6 TTL and MP. 

I can confirm that turning the smaller shutter dial with index finger whilst looking through the viewfinder is a non-issue on M6 & MP. In fact I prefer these cameras, they are smaller and the form-factor just feels right. 

I love my TTL too, but the form-factor feels a bit large and clumsy by comparison - which is strange as it’s only a couple of mm taller. I know if I had only one M film body I’d certainly be happier with the smaller sized ones.   I do use TTL flash though regularly so much enjoy my TTL too

Regarding viewfinders, I’ve looked at these (or through them 😂) side by side and for sure the MP is noticeably better. Not only does it not white out, but the image in the viewfinder patch is marginally more contrasty. I’ve noticed this on a current travel trip where I have the M6 TTL and also MP. For images that count I am glad I have MP because it’s just that little bit easier to focus with confidence - let’s say in portraiture for example. 

The 2mm taller M7 in the shop looked just fine, but when put next to M6 it didn’t look “right”. I’m not a designer, but I work with designers and we have to make compromises to accommodate requirements all the time. That’s the feeling I had from M7 size-wise.

I feel like I’m at the point now where getting closer to finding the right M camera for me means getting one of the candidates and spending a few months with it. 

As it happens, a 190xxxx M6 popped up and I’m gonna take a look at it tomorrow. As I understand that’s the 1991 model with the rubberized eye cap and other little improvements over the early “Leitz” model. 

[krylovsk]

26 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Yes I agree.  Mine has been in for repair a couple of times also.  And also locks up.  When it does, if I give it a hardish knock with one hand on the top plate near the shutter winding lever, whilst simultaneously winding the leaver with the other hand, and the leaver will unlock.  I have never had to do this with my M6, M6 TTL or MP 😂

I looked at CLE before picking up the CL two years ago. I intend to keep the CL for now but if I settle on a non-AE M, which I’m what I’m now inclined to try, I might consider replacing it with a CLE. I was lucky to get the CL in a great condition for a bargain price and it works flawlessly so far, so I might end up with both of them 😀

Repairability is indeed an issue. In worst case with M6 you can upgrade to MP which is mostly identical in use. With CLE you’ll have to find another one and hope it doesn’t die a sudden death on you again.

[grahamc]

3 minutes ago, krylovsk said:

The 2mm taller M7 in the shop looked just fine, but when put next to M6 it didn’t look “right”. I’m not a designer, but I work with designers and we have to make compromises to accommodate requirements all the time. That’s the feeling I had from M7 size-wise.

I feel like I’m at the point now where getting closer to finding the right M camera for me means getting one of the candidates and spending a few months with it. 

As it happens, a 190xxxx M6 popped up and I’m gonna take a look at it tomorrow. As I understand that’s the 1991 model with the rubberized eye cap and other little improvements over the early “Leitz” model. 

I understand about the M7 / M6 TTL size .   I really do love my M6TTL (of course it's a beautiful camera) but in the hand the smaller ones do feel better for some reason.    My. main reason when I purchased the TTL was the larger shutter dial (of course going the 'right' way), that can be moved easily with one finger.  I couldn't find much info online about the ease of movement of the smaller shutters.  When I finally added a M6 classic later this turned out to be a non issue.  

The (smaller) dial is easily turned with the camera to the eye, and right now I'm changing between the 'right' and 'wrong' dial directions on the same trip, with no issues.  Muscle memory is a great thing and I just turn the dial the correct way depending on which body 'feel' is in my hand 

[a.noctilux]

51 minutes ago, krylovsk said:

I looked at CLE before picking up the CL two years ago. I intend to keep the CL for now but if I settle on a non-AE M, which I’m what I’m now inclined to try, I might consider replacing it with a CLE. I was lucky to get the CL in a great condition for a bargain price and it works flawlessly so far, so I might end up with both of them 😀

Repairability is indeed an issue. In worst case with M6 you can upgrade to MP which is mostly identical in use. With CLE you’ll have to find another one and hope it doesn’t die a sudden death on you again.

When you are done with the right choice (M6?), nothing can give you better experience than trying another CLE.

As old lover of CLE (I had one since launch 1980's), sold first long ago, many years back, I had one at good price, still working fine, light, AE, and manual, nothing in Leica M can do as easy as CLE 'kit' 28/40/90 to be light and happy again.

I learn that most of CLE troubles came from false contacts, easy to fix.

 

Anyway, M6 is a very good M, you can even take out battery to experience "freedom", no red LED to bother.

[krylovsk]

Thanks everyone again for the comments and advice. I went to see that M6 and went home with it 🙂

Quick tests around the house are very much supporting my previous impressions in the shop so far. The size is about perfect and I’m getting used to the weight (for now it’s with CV 35/2 Ultron). The shutter dial is fine, but my index finger is not overly happy so let’s see how I get used to it. Looking for the viewfinder flare I was surely able to find it, but I’ll need to see how much of an issue it will be in practice.

The camera seems to be in a great working condition, but I’ll do a few film tests to be sure. I’ll also check what the MP viewfinder upgrade costs, but I’ll provably skip it if I won’t find any other needs for service. 

I’ll let my impressions settle in and will come back after running a few rolls of film through it. Perhaps that would be helpful for others in the future.

Edited July 10, 2022 by krylovsk

[Matlock]

1 hour ago, krylovsk said:

Thanks everyone again for the comments and advice. I went to see that M6 and went home with it 🙂

 Looking for the viewfinder flare I was surely able to find it, but I’ll need to see how much of an issue it will be in practice.

I’ll also check what the MP viewfinder upgrade costs, but I’ll provably skip it if I won’t find any other needs for service. 

I

Sounds good. I have never experienced viewfinder flare on my M6 to be an issue but I know some do. I had the viewfinder upgrade on my M7 and it was well worth it but don't go for unless you need some other work done.

[a.noctilux]

Now that you have one, I see this as beginning of new adventure.

The index finger if it hurts, try to change speed with help of your thumb, two fingers can be "better" than only one.

Another tip is changing the speed before taking your M6 to your eye level.

I learn to adjust the speed in most cases 60 to 250, then "at eye level" change aperture (easier for me, Leitz/Leica lens always in the right direction following arrows).

[Anbaric]

Like most manual cameras, the M6 Classic shutter speed dial is a 'finger and thumb' wheel to me. And it can help to visualise it as a thumbwheel, because when the exposure needs adjusting the illuminated meter arrow points in the direction you have to move your thumb at the back of the dial.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Anbaric

[Jon Warwick]

6 hours ago, Matlock said:

I had the viewfinder upgrade on my M7 and it was well worth it but don't go for unless you need some other work done.

Sounds similar to my thinking, the framelines through the viewfinder on my M7 are sticking, and I have the earliest M7 so it has flare too: so (for me) it makes sense to have the viewfinder upgrade, because the camera will be all coming apart in Wetzlar for a CLA anyhow..

[Matlock]

8 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

Sounds similar to my thinking, the framelines through the viewfinder on my M7 are sticking, and I have the earliest M7 so it has flare too: so (for me) it makes sense to have the viewfinder upgrade, because the camera will be all coming apart in Wetzlar for a CLA anyhow..

Yes and you will have, what is in effect, a new camera.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[kivis]

Consider the M-A. 

[Ornello]

On 7/8/2022 at 9:39 AM, oldwino said:

Handheld metering is quick and liberating. Meter once for the sunny side of the street. Meter again for the shady side of the street. Remember those two settings, and adjust your camera depending on which side of the street you’re on. 
Easy and quick. 

Genau! That's exactly what I do. I don't even bother metering much anymore, as I know what the proper exposures are. (Leicaflex SL2)