Totally feeling sad and heart broken. Bye Leica...

[RBB]

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I understand you're frustration, I live a 4 our drive from Wetzlar, other situation.

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[hepcat]

Another fascinating thread.  I’ve been around Leica cameras since 1974, and used M bodies for much of my pro career for just about everything…. I shot weddings and events with the M8 and M9P, and when the M9’s sensor came down with the dreaded corrosion, Leica sent me a loaner body so I could continue working the six weeks they had my M9P.  Unfortunately, I sold all my M gear in 2016 because I couldn’t see the focusing patch well enough to do critical focus, and the M body is the WORST and klunkiest SLR ever with a Visoflex III attached.

I ended up with a Nikon Df kit, but sold it recently when I came into a Leicaflex SL2 film kit with six or seven lenses which caused me to re-think how I was going to go forward digitally using my newly acquired Leitz glass that I so adore.    I absolutely love the Leica SL2 and I wanted IBIS, which it has.  As a working pro, though, dollars not spent on gear are the same as dollars earned.  After allowing the fantasy to die down and I returned to my senses, I bought a Panny DC-S1 with a LUMIX 24-105 and a Metabones adapter for the Leitz glass when I want to use primes.

I paid $1400 for the Panny AND zoom, $100 for the Metabones adapter, and $3k for a couple of Leicaflex bodies and all the glass.   

Lest you think I’m a total cheapskate, my studio gear is a Phase One XF with a Leaf Credo 40 back and ten or so M645 AF lenses.   I buy my equipment for what it can do for me and for price point, not for the lovely industrial design.   The Panny DC-S1’s files are much like my M9P’s files for malleability, and so far the camera just works.  And should it need to go in for repair, I’ll just buy another low-mileage used one.  They’re plentiful and cheap.

The moral to all of this, for me, is that Leica is about the glass.  The SL2 body is lovely.  I’ve played with them.  I do photography to make income, however, and the SL2 just doesn’t make sense from a cost-benefit perspective when the Panny S1 and S1R are essentially the same camera for half the cost, or less, new.

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

6 hours ago, hepcat said:

Another fascinating thread.  I’ve been around Leica cameras since 1974, and used M bodies for much of my pro career for just about everything…. I shot weddings and events with the M8 and M9P, and when the M9’s sensor came down with the dreaded corrosion, Leica sent me a loaner body so I could continue working the six weeks they had my M9P.  Unfortunately, I sold all my M gear in 2016 because I couldn’t see the focusing patch well enough to do critical focus, and the M body is the WORST and klunkiest SLR ever with a Visoflex III attached.

I ended up with a Nikon Df kit, but sold it recently when I came into a Leicaflex SL2 film kit with six or seven lenses which caused me to re-think how I was going to go forward digitally using my newly acquired Leitz glass that I so adore.    I absolutely love the Leica SL2 and I wanted IBIS, which it has.  As a working pro, though, dollars not spent on gear are the same as dollars earned.  After allowing the fantasy to die down and I returned to my senses, I bought a Panny DC-S1 with a LUMIX 24-105 and a Metabones adapter for the Leitz glass when I want to use primes.

I paid $1400 for the Panny AND zoom, $100 for the Metabones adapter, and $3k for a couple of Leicaflex bodies and all the glass.   

Lest you think I’m a total cheapskate, my studio gear is a Phase One XF with a Leaf Credo 40 back and ten or so M645 AF lenses.   I buy my equipment for what it can do for me and for price point, not for the lovely industrial design.   The Panny DC-S1’s files are much like my M9P’s files for malleability, and so far the camera just works.  And should it need to go in for repair, I’ll just buy another low-mileage used one.  They’re plentiful and cheap.

The moral to all of this, for me, is that Leica is about the glass.  The SL2 body is lovely.  I’ve played with them.  I do photography to make income, however, and the SL2 just doesn’t make sense from a cost-benefit perspective when the Panny S1 and S1R are essentially the same camera for half the cost, or less, new.

 

I have a couple of s1R’s fine cameras. And yes they’re close. But not the same. The SL2 plays MUCH nicer with M glass. The official R adaptor on the SL2 works to auto set IBIS and profiles for R glass and the cover glass is thinner so it has *slightly* higher accutance. You’ll see it with the Summicrons. I also prefer the SL2 menus and buttons/joystick over the S1R.

The S1R does have that fab tri flip screen and better battery life though as well as years of Godox support.

Gordon

[otto.f]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:12 PM, Darthaddie said:

They just can't keep up in product quality and customer service. 

That’s right and in that sense Leica does not deserve its name anymore. How often does it occur that you need to send back your new M because the rangefinder is off and has to be corrected for front or back focus. In my case two times out of three and people seem to think that’s normal, because, yeahh the charm of a rangefinder…. Leica had originally the name of a repairable camera, if it takes three months to get it back from CLA, is that worth your 8000€?! I use Leica since 1990, but my love for the brand  has declined a lot. It is much more a firm now which exploits the old halo around the brand name, which is a businessmodel we see more and more these years. 

[otto.f]

9 hours ago, hepcat said:

Leica is about the glass.

Which has also become very relative the last 10 years because people turn to other brands that are more and more able to produce Mandler like lenses, they don’t go for that insane digital sharpness and/or are not prepared to pay so much more for a lens that performs about the same but is only more compact. 
I wonder if Leica is able yet these days to obtain the very special glasses which other brands can’t or don’t, as in the old days. Or whether the importance of glass is still that high compared to the current optical calculations by computers and computerized grinding. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by otto.f

[John Smith]

4 hours ago, otto.f said:

Which has also become very relative the last 10 years because people turn to other brands that are more and more able to produce Mandler like lenses, they don’t go for that insane digital sharpness and/or are not prepared to pay so much more for a lens that performs about the same but is only more compact. 
I wonder if Leica is able yet these days to obtain the very special glasses which other brands can’t or don’t, as in the old days. Or whether the importance of glass is still that high compared to the current optical calculations by computers and computerized grinding. 

Maybe it's become relative. Maybe not. Peter Karbe said in one of his presentations that lens design is so much more than MTF charts. From my eye, Leica's latest lenses—the SLs, 90mm Summlux, and 75mm Noctilux—carry a rendering and depth that I haven't seen in other systems. Maybe that's subjective. Maybe not. I like my SL2, the Summicrons, the 50mm Summilux, and those M lenses. It doesn't matter to me what other camera makers are doing. 

[BernardC]

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5 hours ago, otto.f said:

wonder if Leica is able yet these days to obtain the very special glasses which other brands can’t or don’t, as in the old days. Or whether the importance of glass is still that high compared to the current optical calculations by computers and computerized grinding. 

That was always a myth. Leica had its own glass lab, but it was very rarely used for production lenses. Almost all of their glass comes from the same major suppliers that every lens maker has access to.

...which doesn't mean that Leica doesn't use "special glass." A lot of glass types are too expensive to be used in mass-market optics. You wouldn't make a $500 lens that includes an element that cost more than that on its own. Same with the quality of materials and machining.

 

However, what I see from your comment is that you prefer the "Mandler-era" look. In that case, vintage R lenses are your best bet. Modern Leica lenses also have a unique look, but it's very different from 1970s and 1980s lenses.

[Darthaddie]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:56 AM, Al Brown said:

As a pro I always have 3 systems at hand. I do as much as I can with my M10-R (of course not everything can be done with it), the rest is done with Sony on G-Master glass and Fujifilm GFX. I TOTALLY get you, you find a system you love but it acts up under heavy stress. That really pisses one off, especially after the investment in it. And it used to be that the ole' mechanical M Leicas were the most reliable cameras under all conditions...
Of course as someone mentioned Leica is a very small company compared to the big names of CaNikOny and they try really hard. It is a miracle that they are where they are. But still, so is ARRI and their cameras are the most reliable in the industry...

 

I totally get what you’re saying. Leica tries hard and it shows with their products. But they don’t try hard with service. It’s absolutely mind boggling that a photographer like me can respond to clients in 3-4 hours while Leica cannot in 4-5 days even. Just shows they are lazy and don’t care. Unless you made friends with someone at Leica. 

[Darthaddie]

5 hours ago, otto.f said:

That’s right and in that sense Leica does not deserve its name anymore. How often does it occur that you need to send back your new M because the rangefinder is off and has to be corrected for front or back focus. In my case two times out of three and people seem to think that’s normal, because, yeahh the charm of a rangefinder…. Leica had originally the name of a repairable camera, if it takes three months to get it back from CLA, is that worth your 8000€?! I use Leica since 1990, but my love for the brand  has declined a lot. It is much more a firm now which exploits the old halo around the brand name, which is a businessmodel we see more and more these years. 

Couldn’t agree more. The exploit can only last so long. I had $13000 worth of equipment go in for repairs. The instructions for shipping them were lame at best. No updates from them. They cameras are not even being shipped to Germany. They are being repaired in New Jersey. And now after 4 weeks they tell me it might take another month or more as they are moving to another location. Like wtaf???? The haloness and ego shows when the rep sound unapologetic and it’s me who should be happy about their new office but not care about a timely repair. 

[Darthaddie]

On 6/23/2022 at 3:25 PM, abphoto said:

Sorry to hear you are leaving Leica.

I am a full time pro and shoot with only Leica M digitals. I have 2 M 10s and an M 10 Mono. Moved form Canon in 2015 with absolutely no regrets. Loved it when Canon had a CPS service center here in the Chicago area, Itasca. It was there until the 1980s and then they brought it back in the 2000s and it is now closed again. It is a great service and do wish Leica had something similar. I would drop cameras or lenses off, get loaners and pick the repaired cameras up a few days later. Doesn't get better than that.

With Canon I kinda needed it with all the issues I had, I was doing work for Nato in 2012 and had a complete shutter failure. Before CPS opened in Itasca I had a 1DsMKIII loaner show up from their center in NJ dead on arrival. Had a bunch of other issues like a mirror falling out and much more. Even with the recall of my original MM and M-E I had far more issues with my Canons than I have had with my Leica's. But I do agree that Canons CPS service is really good. 

Leica M really fits with the way I see and work. I do commercial/advertising and shoot a lot of portraits both environmental and formal. I specialize in healthcare so a lot of annual reports and black tie corporate events. I have even done runway fashion and some automobile photography. 

Some sample to see where i am coming from. All shot with a Leica digital Ms

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Stunning shots. Reminds me of why I loved the Leica in the first place. I’ll stick with my Leica glass on the Sony for now. I was saving to get a M11. I am not so sure about the investment. 
 

Man! They really turned out to be a disappointment. 🙁

[Darthaddie]

On 6/23/2022 at 12:57 AM, wanderingkiwi said:

I've never owned a Leica camera, but I've seriously been considering getting one. Either a Q2 or an SL2. 

This thread has halted me in my tracks.

 

You should be good. If waiting 2-3 months for repair is ok. At least that’s what all the reps at Leica think. They sound like “you own a Leica, be patient you pathetic pos”. Talked to 3 reps at Leica and they all sound the same. I guess we are just peasants in the Leica empire. Lol. 

[lx1713]

4 hours ago, Darthaddie said:

You should be good. If waiting 2-3 months for repair is ok. At least that’s what all the reps at Leica think. They sound like “you own a Leica, be patient you pathetic pos”. Talked to 3 reps at Leica and they all sound the same. I guess we are just peasants in the Leica empire. Lol. 

I have to say I did get that attitude before I was ever a Leica customer 😅

As a Canon user, I did get a fair amount of unacknowledged issues that only filtered into daylight after years of use. I actually switched to an M to solve a particular problem that plagued the Canon 1D, Nikon D2 and Olympus systems.

I'm sorry for the state you find yourself in. And yes, Leica needs to up its service standards.

Now that I have the SL, SL2 and the SL2S, I'm keeping my fingers crossed and say a short prayer whenever I do a shoot.

[Herr Barnack]

On 6/23/2022 at 3:25 PM, abphoto said:

Sorry to hear you are leaving Leica.

I am a full time pro and shoot with only Leica M digitals. I have 2 M 10s and an M 10 Mono. Moved form Canon in 2015 with absolutely no regrets. Loved it when Canon had a CPS service center here in the Chicago area, Itasca. It was there until the 1980s and then they brought it back in the 2000s and it is now closed again. It is a great service and do wish Leica had something similar. I would drop cameras or lenses off, get loaners and pick the repaired cameras up a few days later. Doesn't get better than that.

With Canon I kinda needed it with all the issues I had, I was doing work for Nato in 2012 and had a complete shutter failure. Before CPS opened in Itasca I had a 1DsMKIII loaner show up from their center in NJ dead on arrival. Had a bunch of other issues like a mirror falling out and much more. Even with the recall of my original MM and M-E I had far more issues with my Canons than I have had with my Leica's. But I do agree that Canons CPS service is really good. 

Leica M really fits with the way I see and work. I do commercial/advertising and shoot a lot of portraits both environmental and formal. I specialize in healthcare so a lot of annual reports and black tie corporate events. I have even done runway fashion and some automobile photography. 

Some sample to see where i am coming from. All shot with a Leica digital Ms

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@Darthaddie The SL system did not pan out for your professional work.  Understood.  Why not switch to the M system?  As we can all see, @abphoto demonstrates that the M system is a viable system for professional work.

Some people love to say that the M system is not a pro system and is only viable for affluent hobbyists.  If that's the case, the world of photography will be shocked to learn that the majority of Magnum photographers are "not professionals" and are merely "affluent hobbyists."  Good God, what a scandal! 😄

Edited June 25, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[otto.f]

Professional or hobbyist is totally irrelevant to the issue of reasonable service times for cameras in this price range. And preventing the massive need for service in the first place. Better management and quality controls at the production sites might not be a bad idea. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by otto.f

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, otto.f said:

And preventing the massive need for service in the first place. Better management and quality controls at the production sites might not be a bad idea. 

So now there's a "massive need for service" and poor quality control? You've jumped into myth making. The SL and M cameras aren't particularly unreliable, and modern M cameras don't require the regular service and fine adjustment that they used to. Sure, we see the occasional thread like this one, but that happens any brand forum.

The problem is that you are inventing a false issue that obscures a very real issue: slow service turnaround, poor communication, and lack of available loaners outside of Europe. How can this real problem get fixed if you are inventing a different problem? We all know that the road to a solution starts with identifying the issue, not with misdirection and confusion.

And what's all this about "in this price range?" I have a friend who is a Mercedes mechanic, and he jokes about naive customers who believe that their car shouldn't need service because it is "expensive." That's not how things work. Besides, an SL system isn't more expensive than a top-line Canon, Nikon, or Sony system if you get their best lenses and necessary accessories. Like cars, these things cost more than what you remember paying 10 years ago.

The good news is that Leica does provide service, unlike Sony or Nikon. Sure, Canon is the gold standard for pro gear, but they have a firm cut-off for what they'll fix, and they require you to own a lot of their high-end gear before selling you a subscription to their high-tier service.

Sony's poor service is legendary. They may be able to replace an item that fails during the warranty period, but you are on your own after that. Nikon no longer sells parts to service centres (the very shops that "brought them to the dance", as it were), so you are at their mercy as well.

[Alistairm]

Are serious faults uncommon with Leica? Are not the claims of precision unrivalled by any other camera company more or less marketing and brand positioning, rather than a reflection of reality? 

I know that the M3 (that I think @Herr Barnack is referencing as the Magnum agency camera of choice) is considered incredibly reliable, and was for decades the pinnacle photographic tool, but in the time that I've owned Leicas (about 10 years), they seem to have had serious issues with corroding sensors, faulty AF motors in their pinnacle medium format lenses, fairly inconsisent quality control on their modern film cameras (I've seen estimates that as many as 10% manufactured have faults), the "insufficient battery" problem, more recently a spate of dead SL bodies and so forth. And now they've left their APS-C system users high and dry with very expensive lens collections and no new bodies to use them on. 

Add to that service turn around times that it seems are expected to be months at best and I think Leica is firmly aiming at the hobbyist mob. I'm very happy to be included in that and still use lots of items where there are objectively better tools because I enjoy the experience. Which is why I adore most of my Leica gear and will continue to line up as they release new products. 

But, it is what it is and if you just need to capture photographic images for a living there are plenty of systems that are more capable, cheaper and have better service. 

[Alistairm]

7 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The problem is that you are inventing a false issue that obscures a very real issue: slow service turnaround, poor communication, and lack of available loaners outside of Europe. How can this real problem get fixed if you are inventing a different problem? We all know that the road to a solution starts with identifying the issue, not with misdirection and confusion.

Well said. If Leica users outside Europe could quickly service broken gear, and get a loaner until fixed, half the faults we hear so much about wouldn't even be reported. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Alistairm

[BernardC]

3 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

I know that the M3 (that I think @Herr Barnack is referencing as the Magnum agency camera of choice) is considered incredibly reliable, and was for decades the pinnacle photographic tool, but in the time that I've owned Leicas (about 10 years), they seem to have had serious issues with corroding sensors, faulty AF motors in their pinnacle medium format lenses, fairly inconsisent quality control on their modern film cameras (I've seen estimates that as many as 10% manufactured have faults), the "insufficient battery" problem, more recently a spate of dead SL bodies and so forth. And now they've left their APS-C system users high and dry with very expensive lens collections and no new bodies to use them on. 

The M3 was a hand-made camera, with tons of manual adjustments on the assembly line. It is extremely long-lived, but needs regular servicing to maintain performance. Of course, that was the case with any camera in those days: working professionals would send their gear in every year for a full service.

It's not 1960 any more, I'm sure that some Magnum photographers still use film Leicas, but I expect that most have discovered digital by now.

The other things you mentioned are a bit hand-picked. The M9 had sensor corrosion issues. It was last sold in 2012, and Leica kept replacing those sensors for a decade past that. The S lenses had a motor gear issue which is long resolved. The low battery thing was solved in firmware, for compatible lenses. I'm not sure where you got your estimate that 10% of film cameras are faulty, but it needs context.

We've had two threads about dead SL-2 bodies (not SL, that one is almost fool-proof). Both of those threads boil-down to service issues for hard-working professionals who are far away from Germany. Leica could do a lot better in many markets, but it doesn't seem like a common issue (which would consume a forum like this one).

APS-C users can still use their lenses on any new L-mount camera body. They'll get over 20MP on the SL2 and S1r, and over 26MP with an fp-l. We don't know for sure, but Leica will probably release a smaller full-frame body to replace the CL.

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[Olaf_ZG]

To me faults are normal. Not nice, but they happen. A company makes a difference how to react to those faults.

the more one pays for a product, the higher the expectations of the customer.

Leica positions itself as a high end brand, but obviously, they can not fulfill the expectations regarding service in a timely manner.
 

To me, they should focus on this in order to get things right.

that said, I needed support with my Q and was happy with service received. Not the quickest, but as I was not dependent on the Q, it didn’t matter.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Olaf_ZG

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, Alistairm said:

Are serious faults uncommon with Leica? Are not the claims of precision unrivalled by any other camera company more or less marketing and brand positioning, rather than a reflection of reality? 

I know that the M3 (that I think @Herr Barnack is referencing as the Magnum agency camera of choice) is considered incredibly reliable, and was for decades the pinnacle photographic tool, but in the time that I've owned Leicas (about 10 years), they seem to have had serious issues with corroding sensors, faulty AF motors in their pinnacle medium format lenses, fairly inconsisent quality control on their modern film cameras (I've seen estimates that as many as 10% manufactured have faults), the "insufficient battery" problem, more recently a spate of dead SL bodies and so forth. And now they've left their APS-C system users high and dry with very expensive lens collections and no new bodies to use them on. 

Add to that service turn around times that it seems are expected to be months at best and I think Leica is firmly aiming at the hobbyist mob. I'm very happy to be included in that and still use lots of items where there are objectively better tools because I enjoy the experience. Which is why I adore most of my Leica gear and will continue to line up as they release new products. 

But, it is what it is and if you just need to capture photographic images for a living there are plenty of systems that are more capable, cheaper and have better service. 

I was not referring to the M3 and the 1954-1966 era when it was in production.  The majority of current day Magnum photographers are still shooting with M cameras - and yes,  digital M cameras. 

Quote

...Sony's poor service is legendary. They may be able to replace an item that fails during the warranty period, but you are on your own after that. Nikon no longer sells parts to service centres (the very shops that "brought them to the dance", as it were), so you are at their mercy as well...

Which is why I have never owned a Sony camera and never will.  As a former Nikon disciple, it is disappointing that they have decided to follow this path.

Leica's track record in terms of turnaround time in servicing their cameras has been not that great over the years - there is definitely room for improvement.  That said, I have been fortunate in receiving timely service from Leica NJ on the very few occasions (2 in 20 years of using M cameras) that I have had to send them an M camera for service. 

Leica's Wetzlar and New Jersey service centers have an opportunity here. It would be great to see them make timely service, good communication and client satisfaction their highest priorities and forever bury their past mistakes by making these issues nothing other than a faded memory. 

Leica would do well to make their service departments the complete and total antithesis of Sony's and Nikon's.  Let Sony and Nikon vie for the title of King of Slipshod Client Service.  No good can come of capturing that title.

Photographers who are willing to part with $20,000 to $30,000 for a camera body and a couple of lenses deserve nothing less than the absolute pinnacle of client service when repairs or CLAs are needed.  Leica, we all hope you are listening.