L-system - Why poor sales?

[MarcusGVA]

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Just now, Simone_DF said:

Did you really say "delicate weaving"?

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I do, really. Let me say it again, "delicate weaving". Now laugh harder.

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[Simone_DF]

it's a camera strap. It's not any better or nicer (imho) than other camera straps made by prestigious brands like Cooph or Rock & Roll or Artisan and Artists, but sold at 10x price. But I'm glad Leica is able to sell these straps, it's extra cash that help to keep the company afloat.

[MarcusGVA]

23 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

it's a camera strap. It's not any better or nicer (imho) than other camera straps made by prestigious brands like Cooph or Rock & Roll or Artisan and Artists, but sold at 10x price. But I'm glad Leica is able to sell these straps, it's extra cash that help to keep the company afloat.

Cooph mostly uses climbing rope and paracord, and their leather straps are not nearly as refined in design as the Zegna strap. Pretty much the same story with Rock & Roll leather straps. Doesn't mean their quality is not good. It may not be your taste, but the Zegna strap is certainly a more intricate design. And some are willing to pay for that, besides the premium for the name of course.

Edited June 22, 2022 by MarcusGVA

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, MarcusGVA said:

Cooph mostly uses climbing rope and paracord, and their leather straps are not nearly as refined in design as the Zegna strap. Pretty much the same story with Rock & Roll leather straps. Doesn't mean their quality is not good. It may not be your taste, but the Zegna strap is certainly a more intricate design. And some are willing to pay for that, besides the premium for the name of course.

It's certainly the kind of product that brings-out people who have strong opinions about how others should spend their money!

Personally, I have no issues supporting artisans dedicated to their craft. They could be running restaurants, selling leather goods (a friend is world-famous for that), making art, designing buildings, whatever. Sure, it costs more, but how is that anyone else's problem? Do we want to live in a world without skill and passion, where everything is as cheap and bland as can be?

Back to Leica: no one doubts that it's a quality product, so what's the issue. That's how much Zegna items cost, no one is forcing you to buy it. I'm sure that Leica only has a few in stock anyway. Other cheaper options are available.

[Doug Trabaris]

L mount lenses are quite expensive in the U.S. when compared to the U.K., EU, and Hong Kong. I bought a 90-280 zoom lense recently for Euro 5,000. In the U.S. it’s well over $6,000 from eBay or 7,200 (plus tax) if bought locally. I told Leica US’s head of sales this and said stores need to discount more. I’m not sure he agreed, but lower prices could help sales.

I bought my SL2-S & 24-70 lense as part of a kit and it was decently priced. Why not do it for lenses?

[Stuart Richardson]

This is likely the residual effect of the 25% tax on German lenses imposed during the Trump administration. The tariff was not imposed on kits, which is why it was possible to get better pricing for packaged kits, but it is applied on individual lenses.

[Jean-Michel]

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On 6/22/2022 at 4:09 AM, MarcusGVA said:

Cooph mostly uses climbing rope and paracord, and their leather straps are not nearly as refined in design as the Zegna strap. Pretty much the same story with Rock & Roll leather straps. Doesn't mean their quality is not good. It may not be your taste, but the Zegna strap is certainly a more intricate design. And some are willing to pay for that, besides the premium for the name of course.

Well, I found a really excellent strap for the SL2. It is by Harry Benz (in Toronto, Canada ) it hinges on the lugs. It is simply perfect. And the length can be made to your exact requirements. 

[Jeff S]

21 minutes ago, Jean-Michel said:

Well, I found a really excellent strap for the SL2. It is by Harry Benz (in Toronto, Canada ) it hinges on the lugs. It is simply perfect. And the length can be made to your exact requirements. 

I ordered one of these from Harry, but used the Peak Design Leash while he was making it.  I ended up preferring the PD strap for various reasons and selling the Benz strap to a forum member.  Different strokes....

Jeff

[Jean-Michel]

43 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I ordered one of these from Harry, but used the Peak Design Leash while he was making it.  I ended up preferring the PD strap for various reasons and selling the Benz strap to a forum member.  Different strokes....

Jeff

Yes. Whatever works best for each one is the best choice. 

[Jeff S]

Good rule of thumb for most all gear, and subjects, discussed here. 😉

Jeff

[JackieMac]

I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks, and felt like getting my SL2 thoughts off my chest.

I used Canon bodies for a long time before selling them and moving to the SL2. (I find it really sad that DSLR ecosystems seem to generally be in some sort of "zombie" mode right now, which is a bummer, because I've yet to see a benefit to mirrorless. And most of the best DSLR lenses were also much smaller than the mirrorless replacements.) Compared to the 5D Mark IV, the SL2 is noticeably smaller. To me, the SL2 is the most elegantly designed interchangeable lens mirrorless I've ever used. And the handling and ergonomics just felt "right" to me, whatever that means. If aesthetics, design, and the shooting experience were the priority for everyone, the SL2 would be more popular. But...

While the 3 factors I listed do play a role for some, they certainly didn't matter much when I was using my 5DMIV. All I cared about was getting the shot, and with that camera and the beautiful glass I had, I often could, especially when shooting fast-moving sports action. The AF on that camera was spectacular in almost any situation. But alas, the SL2, as so many have noted, leaves much to be desired regarding AFC performance. (And at a significantly higher price point.)

I think we can probably take AFS for granted on most modern cameras in ordinary situations. But introduce movement, and the SL2's weakness are laid bare. I was shooting a high school cross-country event last fall and was absolutely gutted when I saw how many of the shots were "misses." This almost never happened when using my Canons.

If the SL2 had AFC performance like its Japanese counterparts, I'd declare it my favorite camera in history. But it doesn't, so I couldn't justify keeping it just because it looked beautiful, felt amazing in my hands, and could survive a monsoon. I disappointedly sold it.

Now, I am loving my M11 for all the situations where carrying something big would be a hassle. But obviously it can't do everything either. I wanted to love the SL2, but in terms of functionality, I found its practical applications to be too similar to M cameras, albeit with an EVF, video, and weather sealing. But I would never choose something so big when I could just grab my M11. Unless Leica goes with phase-detection AF on the next generation, I'm afraid I might have to return to Canon or the like. My $0.02.

[BernardC]

11 hours ago, JackieMac said:

While the 3 factors I listed do play a role for some, they certainly didn't matter much when I was using my 5DMIV. All I cared about was getting the shot, and with that camera and the beautiful glass I had, I often could, especially when shooting fast-moving sports action. The AF on that camera was spectacular in almost any situation. But alas, the SL2, as so many have noted, leaves much to be desired regarding AFC performance. (And at a significantly higher price point.)

I think you've figured-out what photographers have known for the last 30 years: if your style of photography depends on AF, Canon is the top choice.

I went in the other direction: I stopped using Canon because it would no longer allow me to focus manually. The 5D viewfinder was getting worse with every generation, you couldn't buy a good focus screen from them without springing for a 1Dx (more expensive than an SL), they didn't offer a full set of high-quality lenses in the normal range. Sure, they have great telephotos for over $10,000, but I don't want or need those. How about a 50mm that doesn't feel like it's covered with gauze?

The SL was a revelation. So much easier to focus, better interface, better handholding, better colour, better selection of lenses. It also turned-out to be more dependable and solid than Canon, which was an unexpected bonus.

I completely sympathize with your point that you will remain a Canon customer simply for AF. They are the industry leader for that. Unfortunately, AF makes me slower, not faster. For instance, if I have two people in my composition, I have to manually tell AF which one to favour. That artistic decision might change in a fraction of a second as they interact. It's a hundred times easier to subconsciously nudge the focus ring, compared to pleading with a UI to let me choose a different AF target. By the time I'm done I might have to start again!

[JackieMac]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

I completely sympathize with your point that you will remain a Canon customer simply for AF. They are the industry leader for that. Unfortunately, AF makes me slower, not faster. For instance, if I have two people in my composition, I have to manually tell AF which one to favour. That artistic decision might change in a fraction of a second as they interact. It's a hundred times easier to subconsciously nudge the focus ring, compared to pleading with a UI to let me choose a different AF target. By the time I'm done I might have to start again!

I wasn't sure how my take on the SL2 would land, but you seem to have gotten my point. It all comes down to subject matter I guess. My M is the only thing I need for most things. Except for when it isn't! 😂 The search continues.

[DirkZ]

Guys, don't worry about sales or whatever. Go out and shoot images and enjoy your camera equipment.

[frame-it]

14 minutes ago, DirkZ said:

Guys, don't worry about sales or whatever. Go out and shoot images and enjoy your camera equipment.

i think some people just want a new-higher-spec-camera every 2 years, even though the older one works fine, and they don't print big 😇

[Olaf_ZG]

7 hours ago, frame-it said:

i think some people just want a new-higher-spec-camera every 2 years, even though the older one works fine, and they don't print big 😇

Which I fully support, cause it feeds the second hand market 😇

[Kim Dahl]

On 6/25/2022 at 3:37 AM, JackieMac said:

I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks, and felt like getting my SL2 thoughts off my chest.

I used Canon bodies for a long time before selling them and moving to the SL2. (I find it really sad that DSLR ecosystems seem to generally be in some sort of "zombie" mode right now, which is a bummer, because I've yet to see a benefit to mirrorless. And most of the best DSLR lenses were also much smaller than the mirrorless replacements.) Compared to the 5D Mark IV, the SL2 is noticeably smaller. To me, the SL2 is the most elegantly designed interchangeable lens mirrorless I've ever used. And the handling and ergonomics just felt "right" to me, whatever that means. If aesthetics, design, and the shooting experience were the priority for everyone, the SL2 would be more popular. But...

While the 3 factors I listed do play a role for some, they certainly didn't matter much when I was using my 5DMIV. All I cared about was getting the shot, and with that camera and the beautiful glass I had, I often could, especially when shooting fast-moving sports action. The AF on that camera was spectacular in almost any situation. But alas, the SL2, as so many have noted, leaves much to be desired regarding AFC performance. (And at a significantly higher price point.)

I think we can probably take AFS for granted on most modern cameras in ordinary situations. But introduce movement, and the SL2's weakness are laid bare. I was shooting a high school cross-country event last fall and was absolutely gutted when I saw how many of the shots were "misses." This almost never happened when using my Canons.

If the SL2 had AFC performance like its Japanese counterparts, I'd declare it my favorite camera in history. But it doesn't, so I couldn't justify keeping it just because it looked beautiful, felt amazing in my hands, and could survive a monsoon. I disappointedly sold it.

Now, I am loving my M11 for all the situations where carrying something big would be a hassle. But obviously it can't do everything either. I wanted to love the SL2, but in terms of functionality, I found its practical applications to be too similar to M cameras, albeit with an EVF, video, and weather sealing. But I would never choose something so big when I could just grab my M11. Unless Leica goes with phase-detection AF on the next generation, I'm afraid I might have to return to Canon or the like. My $0.02.

I've done it already - Canon R3.  AF is COMPLETELY without comparison.  Tilt screen is so nice.  Image quality at the same level.  Thinking of trying an R5 to have more MP.

But as you say, I still love my Leica MD and my TL2 which unfortunately does not continue. 

[John Smith]

Leica reports its latest sales figures. Good reason not to rely on idle forum chat about the company's poor sales or demise.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[beewee]

1 hour ago, John Smith said:

Leica reports its latest sales figures. Good reason not to rely on idle forum chat about the company's poor sales or demise.

Great that Leica is doing well as a company but the link and corresponding press release says nothing about the sales performance of the L-mount product, for better or worse.

If history is any indication, the Xiaomi partnership probably brought in more revenue than the combined sales of all L-mount sales (including licensing fees) for Leica over the past year.

[John Smith]

2 hours ago, beewee said:

Great that Leica is doing well as a company but the link and corresponding press release says nothing about the sales performance of the L-mount product, for better or worse.

If history is any indication, the Xiaomi partnership probably brought in more revenue than the combined sales of all L-mount sales (including licensing fees) for Leica over the past year.

I knew there would be some flak for posting the link.