L-system - Why poor sales?

[Alistairm]

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32 minutes ago, Archiver said:

As an aside, I would love for Voigtlander to join the L mount alliance and make manual focus primes specifically optimized for L mount.

Great idea, but given how well M lenses adapt to the SL, wouldn't almost everyone just by the M Mount anyway for purposes of resale/longevity, cross use on the M? 

[frame-it]

33 minutes ago, Archiver said:

As an aside, I would love for Voigtlander to join the L mount alliance and make manual focus primes specifically optimized for L mount.

and Zeiss

[Photoworks]

38 minutes ago, Archiver said:

As an aside, I would love for Voigtlander to join the L mount alliance and make manual focus primes specifically optimized for L mount.

Why should they, they are not partners with Leica.

Enjoy what you have on M

[Simone_DF]

7 hours ago, Archiver said:

As an aside, I would love for Voigtlander to join the L mount alliance and make manual focus primes specifically optimized for L mount.

I hope that too, but why would they, Leica keeps repeating the mantra that M lenses look good on the SL.

[BernardC]

10 hours ago, frame-it said:

and Zeiss

Unfortunately, Zeiss doesn't seem to be interested in consumer lenses these days. The ZM line is stagnant, as is their Sony collaboration. They usually work with third parties for mass market lenses, so they would probably need to find a new partner.

[robb]

So 10 pages in and I see no examples of poor sales..

Robb

[MakinMemories]

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1 hour ago, robb said:

So 10 pages in and I see no examples of poor sales..

Robb

 

Lot's of examples of Troll's however🤣

[Simone_DF]

3 hours ago, robb said:

So 10 pages in and I see no examples of poor sales..

It was on page 1 actually:

 

[IkarusJohn]

5 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

It was on page 1 actually:

 

With no reference to Leica, and all in Japanese.  Source and relevance?

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, BernardC said:

Unfortunately, Zeiss doesn't seem to be interested in consumer lenses these days. The ZM line is stagnant, as is their Sony collaboration. They usually work with third parties for mass market lenses, so they would probably need to find a new partner.

they have already announced the are no longer making most photo lenses, especially M

I suppose they are focusing on Cinema glass.

[Simone_DF]

17 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

With no reference to Leica, and all in Japanese.  Source and relevance?

Because Leica barely sells any camera at all if we are looking at sheer numbers. Would you count how many cars Ferrari has sold in a chart about the top car makers that includes Ford, Fiat and Volkswagen? This of course doesn't mean Leica doesn't make a profit, which is what really matters in the end.

The source is Techno System Research, and it was published by the Nikkei stock index. Here's the link https://vdata.nikkei.com/newsgraphics/share-ranking/#/year/latest/chart-cards it contains multiple charts, and you need to be able to read Japanese, which doesn't make the data less valid.

Please note that this market research is limited to the Japanese market, so it's not representative of the rest of the world. But still, a 4.4% in market share in Japan doesn't sound a great result to me, especially if it includes m4/3, and in general there shouldn't be any major fluctuations in percentage (like more than 5-10% difference) in global shares when comparing Japanese charts to other region charts. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Simone_DF

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Because Leica barely sells any camera at all if we are looking at sheer numbers. Would you count how many cars Ferrari has sold in a chart about the top car makers that includes Ford, Fiat and Volkswagen? This of course doesn't mean Leica doesn't make a profit, which is what really matters in the end.

The source is Techno System Research, and it was published by the Nikkei stock index. Here's the link https://vdata.nikkei.com/newsgraphics/share-ranking/#/year/latest/chart-cards it contains multiple charts, and you need to be able to read Japanese, which doesn't make the data less valid.

Please note that this market research is limited to the Japanese market, so it's not representative of the rest of the world. But still, a 4.4% in market share in Japan doesn't sound a great result to me, especially if it includes m4/3, and in general there shouldn't be any major fluctuations in percentage (like more than 5-10% difference) in global shares when comparing Japanese charts to other region charts. 

Yet, the topic is “poor sales”, not market share.

There have been many trolls across the forum pronouncing the death of the L system, as there were with the S system (which according to Leica, exceeded projected sales).  We simply do not know what Leica’s sales expectations are for the L system, what sales they’ve achieved or what their profits are.  So, this entire thread is nothing more than speculation.

Even in Japan, I doubt Leica makes their sales figures available to research institutes.  As it isn’t listed (anywhere), there is no requirement for them to provide any information to the Nikkei.

I’m sure the stats are useful for assessing Sigma and Panasonic, and their success with the L mount is to Leica’s benefit, providing smaller and cheaper options in the L mount, thereby eventually attracting buyers to Leica products.  I have no particular interest in either company, I’d have to say.  I tend to buy once, buy well and use what I have till it dies.  What is happening around the rest of the market is of zero interest, to be honest - it’s all about taking photographs …

As to Leica’s L system products, we’re told the APS-C cameras and lenses are to be discontinued (still available here).  That may reflect poor sales, it could be a cost/supply factor, or it could just be that Leica does not see a future for its products in APS-C.  I doubt we’ll ever know.

As to the full frame L system, I don’t see any particular lack of commitment on Leica’s part.  Do you?  On a typical Leica product cycle, we have three SL cameras over 6(?) years.  I bought mine in early 2016, and it continues to run flawlessly.  Lens development, as with all Leica lenses, has been slow but continuous.  Is it enough to be profitable?  Who knows?  Will Leica discontinue the L system?  It doesn’t seem so.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying everything is rosey.  I don’t know.  But I do suspect, on reasonable grounds having seen the death of Leica and various Leica products predicted with monotonous regularity since I joined this forum 12 years ago, that things are not as bad as many say.  It’s little but trolling, in my view.  So, why do I bother responding?  Myth becomes reality.  I have represented niche product manufacturers a number of times over the years, and I have seen excellent products sunk without a trace by hyperventilating spec sheet readers who have agendas.

The truth is, Leica’s L system products are fabulous.  Truly.  Fantastic.  I love mine, and I would not have sold most of my L mount lenses if I wasn’t so committed to my M system cameras.  If Leica ditches its L system, I will be sorry as I like the products, but the sky isn’t going to fall.  It will have made that decision for its own commercial reasons, which I think we must all respect.  I hope they keep making the cameras I like, but as the ones I have will work till I die, it probably makes no difference to me one way or the other.

I do hate to see a good company have baseless rumour spread.  It’s damaging.

Edited June 16, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Yet, the topic is “poor sales”, not market share.

There have been many trolls across the forum pronouncing the death of the L system, as there were with the S system (which according to Leica, exceeded projected sales).  We simply do not know what Leica’s sales expectations are for the L system, what sales they’ve achieved or what their profits are.  So, this entire thread is nothing more than speculation.

Even in Japan, I doubt Leica makes their sales figures available to research institutes.  As it isn’t listed (anywhere), there is no requirement for them to provide any information to the Nikkei.

I’m sure the stats are useful for assessing Sigma and Panasonic, and their success with the L mount is to Leica’s benefit, providing smaller and cheaper options in the L mount, thereby eventually attracting buyers to Leica products.  I have no particular interest in either company, I’d have to say.  I tend to buy once, buy well and use what I have till it dies.  What is happening around the rest of the market is of zero interest, to be honest - it’s all about taking photographs …

As to the full frame L system, I don’t see any particular lack of commitment on Leica’s part.  Do you?  On a typical Leica product cycle, we have three SL cameras over 6(?) years.  I bought mine in early 2016, and it continues to run flawlessly.  Lens development, as with all Leica lenses, has been slow but continuous.  Is it enough to be profitable?  Who knows?  Will Leica discontinue the L system?  It doesn’t seem so.

You forget a big, big part of the equation, Panasonic. If Panasonic sales are not satisfactory (ie they don't make a profit), the SL will go the way of the dodo. It's no secret that most of the innards of the SL are made by Panasonic and shared between the SL and the Panasonic S line. That's also the reason why the SL2s is 4500€ and not 8500 like the M. Shared development, shared costs. A winning strategy for Leica, but if one partner goes, the other will follow too.

Now, I don't see that happening, the two companies are doubling down on their collaboration with the L2 partnership, and DJI just joined, so I think the L mount will only increase its market share because of its many tangible benefits, but at the same time these first couple of years have been not as good as both companies expected. The S1R was discontinued a bit more than two years after launch. The Leica lenses are being released at a snail pace (24 and 21 Summicron anyone?). Constant deals on the SL, something we never saw before from Leica.

By the way, Panasonic's market share increased to 4.4% only when the S5 was released. Before, if I remember correctly, it was about 3% or slightly less. 

tl;dr: I don't think the L mount will die anytime soon, quite the opposite, it's a really appealing system compared to Nikon for example, but the alliance definitely started with the wrong foot with big, chunky cameras and crappy autofocus. But they also learned the lesson, the S5 and the substantial improvements to the AF system are encouraging.

[SJH]

I think the above two posts in #193 sum things up well and really we don't simply know whether Leica feels targets have been met or in fact the SL line is below budget, we frankly have no idea. We can reasonably guess that Panasonic, Nikon, Canon and Sony all outsell Leica's SL line though

I think though that real challenge lies with Panasonic's next round of camera's, pop over to the various Panasonic forums and the tumble weed rolls as to when the S2 and S2R will appear and I imagine that's the driver for the SL3 launch as well.

When the SL2 was launched the Canon R5 & 6, Sony A1 & A7IV, Nikon Z series II & Z9 and the Fuji XH2s didn't exist, since they've landed nearly every Youtube channel concentrates on 'shock horror this camera now blows x, y and z out of the water AF wise' because it's an easier thing to get likes and views on in today's world.

The latest AF improvements have narrowed the gap i.e. SL eye AF and the S5 but whether the amateur really needs pro sports/wildlife AF and 30fps RAW they like to buy into 'spec' wars in today's consumer market - just look at the comments on a new camera like the Z9 on DPReview.

So rather like Fuji have done with the XH2s they listened and have updated their AF system, it would appear, from a sales perspective I suspect (and it is speculation of course) but Panasonic firstly and then by default Leica need to up their game here to be perceived as in the 'good AF club'. On the world of Youtube (which does drive sales whether we like it or not) it appears they are in the relegation zone now.

However, I will continue to use my SL2s with my M lenses, Leica SL glass and Sigma L mount lenses as they just take great photo's for what I need and I very much hope that will continue with all that is good about Leica. I suspect though that an SL3/S2R, with Canon R5 levels of AF, would bring in many more people who hadn't used a Leica/L mount camera before and increase sales, whether this makes sense (in terms of the dev costs for them) we simply don't know and of course they'd have to deal with the flash side of things to.

Edited June 17, 2022 by SJH

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

You forget a big, big part of the equation, Panasonic. If Panasonic sales are not satisfactory (ie they don't make a profit), the SL will go the way of the dodo. It's no secret that most of the innards of the SL are made by Panasonic and shared between the SL and the Panasonic S line. That's also the reason why the SL2s is 4500€ and not 8500 like the M. Shared development, shared costs. A winning strategy for Leica, but if one partner goes, the other will follow too.

…

No, I hadn’t forgotten that.  But I don’t agree that, if Panasonic discontinues its L collaboration, it doesn’t automatically mean that Leica discontinues its relationship with Panasonic on making the SL cameras.  That was happening before the L mount alliance, and I’d be surprised if Leica didn’t have that tied up in some way.

Then again, I’m often surprised …

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

The S1R was discontinued a bit more than two years after launch.

Was it? The major stores don't list it as "discontinued." You would think they would know.

Note: I don't doubt that production has ended, and that Panasonic won't run another batch. Cameras, as with most electronics, are built in batches.

I am just wondering about the announcement that it was discontinued last year.

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, Photoworks said:

they have already announced the are no longer making most photo lenses, especially M

I suppose they are focusing on Cinema glass.

They are a billion Euro company. Consumer photographic lenses haven't been a major part of their business for decades.

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

It's no secret that most of the innards of the SL are made by Panasonic and shared between the SL and the Panasonic S line.

It's too easy to write "It's no secret that...." and "Everyone knows that......" without evidence. Source? Exactly what is "most of the innards"? The SL launched in 2016, the S1 in 2019. The L-mount launched in 2014, and the L-mount alliance was announced in 2018. I don't doubt that there is Panasonic tech in the SL series, but the rest is guess work. Anyone care to guess which of these systems are Leica's and which are Panasonic's in the SL, SL2 and SL2-S?

• Shutter
• Exposure metering and AE control.
• Auto focus
• EVF, including optics, exposure preview, data display etc.
• LCD display
• Top display
• Microprocessor and camera integration firmware (the subsystems presumably come with their own f/w)
• Human interface & menus
• Battery and power management
• Wifi & bluetooth, FOTOS integration
• Video systems

Frankly I have no idea which of these are actually discrete subsystems that could be provided by a third party. 

[LBJ2]

We will probably never see any publicly available data concerning Leica camera sales L-mount or other wise, which is probably why we see threads titles like this one--based upon nothing. 

Other than general Leica executive comments here or there, like how well the Q and now Q2 has sold/selling for Leica and that M rangefinder remains the cornerstone and that Leica feels they own the market both the M and Q represent. Like wise, Leica probably doesn't sell enough product in general in any market to show up on the BCN/Techno Systems Research reports when compared to the other companies. I wonder if Leica shop sales are even included in the retail data reports we see on other mass camera brands. 

Panasonic, IMO, the technical lead of the SL camera system ( Panasonic, Germany ) , it seems is just as difficult to find publicly available sales data when it comes to it's own branded camera sales.  

"Panasonic Industry Europe might be less visible to the end consumer, but it is hidden in many German products."  https://www.j-big.de/en/panasonic-industry-is-hidden-in-a-lot-of-german-products/

"Panasonic, The Lumbering Tech Giant That Makes Cameras

" ...it’s almost impossible to get any meaningful information on Panasonic’s cameras; if you look through its 2021 financial report, cameras are not even mentioned while disaggregating its sales is difficult as the company doesn’t talk about cameras (let alone sales volumes!) and the only other primary metric is from the BCN Awards Data. Panasonic doesn’t feature in the three main categories (mirrorless, DSLR, integrated), though it steamrollered the video camera award, taking 43.6% of sales followed by Sony (26.3%) and DJI (11.2%). However, this isn’t a product category for CIPA so we don’t know how many global shipments they represent.

The only other recent data point we have is from the Techno System Research marketing report for 2020 (as reported by Fuji Rumors), which confirms global camera shipments at 8.9 million units with the following market share: Canon (47.9%), Sony (22.1%), Nikon (13.7%), Fuji (5.6%), and Panasonic (4.4%).

Of course, this combines mirrorless, DSLR, and integrated cameras; the report then focuses on the mirrorless segment, with market shares changing to: Sony (35.7%), Canon (32.6%), Fuji (11.8%), Nikon (8.0%), Olympus (6.4%), and Panasonic (5.5%). Linking this up with global shipment data from CIPA, Panasonic’s share equates to about 157,000 units, only hair’s width back from Olympus and Nikon."

https://petapixel.com/2022/03/20/panasonic-the-lumbering-slumbering-tech-giant-that-makes-cameras/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Was it? The major stores don't list it as "discontinued." You would think they would know.

Note: I don't doubt that production has ended, and that Panasonic won't run another batch. Cameras, as with most electronics, are built in batches.

I am just wondering about the announcement that it was discontinued last year.

We had exactly the same discussion 6 months ago. It is listed as discontinued pretty much EVERYWHERE.

B&H: "Special order" (which means they are getting the leftovers from other shops)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1455070-REG/panasonic_dc_s1rbody_lumix_dc_s1r_mirrorless_digital.html

Adorama: "special order" https://www.adorama.com/pcs1r.html 

Wex: not available new, meaning it's not even shown in search results, only used https://www.wexphotovideo.com

And it's been like this since about May 2021. 

What you see still in stock are remaining stock, just like the CL is still available in some camera store.