What M lens designer is missing - maybe Lothar Kölsch?

[adan]

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I ran across the following comment on an unrelated thread (the guilty shall remain nameless )

Quote

I have met 3 Leica looks since the seventies: pre-Mandler, Mandler and Karbe.

That leaves out 16 years of Leica lens development - 1986-2002. Including several "firsts" for the M. First 24mm lens, first Aspherical/ASPH lenses, first APO lenses.

During which time Lothar Kölsch was chief optical designer at Wild-Leitz and then Leica Camera GMBH. And then for all optics, and eventually supervising all product design and R&D. And deserves credit for at least a 4th era in M (and R) lens design (whether it had a "look" or not.)

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Lothar_Kölsch

Regarding M lenses, that covers:

1990 - Conversion of Mandler (?) 90mm Elmarit-R v.2 to Leica M mount
1990 - 35mm Summilux-M Aspherical (a.k.a "AA" - two ground aspheric elements - rare and legendary)
1992 - 50mm Summilux-M "v.3" (if indeed that was a new optical design, not just a new mount)
1993 - 28mm Elmarit-M v.4
1994 - 35mm Summilux-M ASPH (one molded ASPH)
1997 - 35mm Summicron-M ASPH
1997 - 21mm Elmarit-M ASPH
1998 - 24mm Elmarit-M ASPH
1998 - 90mm APO-Summicron-M ASPH
1998 - 135mm APO-Telyt-M f/3.4
2000 - 28mm Summicron-M ASPH

Not to mention numerous APO-R teles and zooms throughout the 1990s, plus the 1998 8-element 50mm Summilux-R, the signature 100mm APO-Macro-Elmarit-R (1987), and improved versions of the 19mm amd 28mm Elmarit-Rs (1990 and 1994).

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[Jeff S]

Yes, but as you also rightly noted years ago, other designers often play a key role during the reign of any chief designer.  Even including Karbe during Kolsch’s tenure, and now likely others under Karbe.

The Leica Wiki isn’t exactly clear about all specific lens designs during Kolsch’s tenure, but does offer other personal background and specialization…

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Lothar_Kölsch

Jeff

[Jeff S]

Sorry, didn't mean to repeat Wiki link.

Jeff

[adan]

Naturally, I agree with myself ( - and you) .

I just raise the question of why we talk of Mandler lenses and "look" (no doubt designed with the help of others) and Karbe lenses and "look" (no doubt designed with the help of others) - but Kölsch seems consigned to the attic, like an embarrassing uncle.

[Jeff S]

Good question.  Ironically his team accounts for some of my most used M lenses since starting with my first M in the 80’s, continuing today with the 28 and 35 Summicron ASPH (both v.1). But I should have picked up a few AA’s.  Maybe explains why I’m not too immersed in the Mandler/Karbe debates.

Jeff

[toyfel]

If people think there is definitely something like a Mandler look and a Karbe look, then yes I would argue too that there are lenses from the 1990's that do not fall into those two categories. At least to my eyes they produce a different look (which I happen to like). So I'd agree with you that Kölsch would be equally qualified as a Leica lens designer whose name could or should be attributed to a certain 'era' of Leica lens design.   

[Robert Blanko]

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Thus let‘s search for the Kölsch-Look!
 

BTW, Kölsch is a beer (or what the locals call „beer“) in Cologne, Germany…

[Guest]

10 hours ago, adan said:

Regarding M lenses, that covers:

1990 - Conversion of Mandler (?) 90mm Elmarit-R v.2 to Leica M mount
1990 - 35mm Summilux-M Aspherical (a.k.a "AA" - two ground aspheric elements - rare and legendary)
1992 - 50mm Summilux-M "v.3" (if indeed that was a new optical design, not just a new mount)
1993 - 28mm Elmarit-M v.4
1994 - 35mm Summilux-M ASPH (one molded ASPH)
1997 - 35mm Summicron-M ASPH
1997 - 21mm Elmarit-M ASPH
1998 - 24mm Elmarit-M ASPH
1998 - 90mm APO-Summicron-M ASPH
1998 - 135mm APO-Telyt-M f/3.4
2000 - 28mm Summicron-M ASPH

1994 - 50mm Elmar-M (newest design)

1998 - 28-35-50mm Tri-Elmar-M ASPH.

Most of my lenses are from this period, including some of my favourites. This was also the period in which silver chrome lenses were widely available. I certainly like the Kölsch era. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, adan said:

I just raise the question of why we talk of Mandler lenses and "look" (no doubt designed with the help of others) and Karbe lenses and "look" (no doubt designed with the help of others) - but Kölsch seems consigned to the attic, like an embarrassing uncle.

It's probably the "Umlaut." Just too difficult to type his name. 

[idusidusi]

1 minute ago, Studienkamera said:

It's probably the "Umlaut." Just too difficult to type his name. 

One doesn't need the umlaut so no difficulty whatsoever 'Koelsch' amounting to exactly the right name too!

[Guest]

Just now, idusidusi said:

One doesn't need the umlaut so no difficulty whatsoever 'Koelsch' amounting to exactly the right name too!

I know. I wasn't too serious.

[idusidusi]

2 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

I know. I wasn't too serious.

Ok you got me there. It is one of the first things I learnt when moving to Switzerland.

[lct]

13 hours ago, adan said:

I ran across the following comment on an unrelated thread (the guilty shall remain nameless ) [...]

I plead non guilty until you demonstrate that there is a Kolsch look. Your turn to play 

[adan]

Oh, I think the Kölsch look is what we now call the Karbe look - the clarity and contrast and "engineered bokeh" of APO and ASPH designs, and a drift towards bluer/pinker color rendition.

Kölsch created that - he just didn't have Utube videos (or internet forums in general) in the 1990s to produce such a "cult of personality."

Which of course is not Karbe's doing, but Leica's marketing team - Karbe has usually struck me as rather shy and retiring and just interested in his work.

And Karbe has taken Kölsch's innovations and run with them, also adding the FLEs to improve close-up performance.

...............

If Mandler now also has something of a "cult of personality," that may be partly my fault.

A good reason to even up the score for Kölsch a bit.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by adan

[derleicaman]

I met Lothar Kolsch many times back in the years he was in charge of the Optical Dept. He was always very open and very pleasant. You are right that we should also be discussing his legacy, and the Kolsch look. He was in charge during a very difficult period in Leica’s history. He probably helped save the company during this period with some very successful lenses. I too love my Kolsch bier as my family is from the area of Koln. 🙂

I know Peter Karbe well, and he is more the shy retiring type. I last saw him in November at Cafe Leitz. We had a nice visit with him. He was supposed to be retiring, but told me he wasn’t ready for that yet. He said, “what would he do with himself if he wasn’t designing lenses for Leica”?!

Edited May 28, 2022 by derleicaman

[mdg1371]

2 hours ago, derleicaman said:

I met Lothar Kolsch many times back in the years he was in charge of the Optical Dept. He was always very open and very pleasant. You are right that we should also be discussing his legacy, and the Kolsch look. He was in charge during a very difficult period in Leica’s history. He probably helped save the company during this period with some very successful lenses. I too love my Kolsch bier as my family is from the area of Koln. 🙂

I know Peter Karbe well, and he is more the shy retiring type. I last saw him in November at Cafe Leitz. We had a nice visit with him. He was supposed to be retiring, but told me he wasn’t ready for that yet. He said, “what would he do with himself if he wasn’t designing lenses for Leica”?!

Bill, A quick shot from Cafe Leitz last  November! 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[JonPB]

I have long been a fan of Kölsch lenses.

This period saw the emergence of aspherical surfaces in the mainstream (high-end but not limited to halo products). I see lenses from other companies with intrusive, unusual aberrations resulting from using aspherics to optimize for traditional metrics without deferring to actual images. Kölsch-era asph lenses are generally smaller, simpler, and higher resolution … their images usually don’t look stressed.

(I think Karbe accepted more stress for higher peak performance.)

This was also during the rise of autofocus and good-quality zooms, when other companies’ primes had come close-enough to Leica’s to make the future rather uncertain. The pressure must have been intense and indiscriminate. The result, though, was the pinnacle of mechanical SLR lenses and an aesthetic bridge between Mandler and Karbe.

Kölsch-era designs suffer, however, from using aspherics to make lenses smaller by using steeper ray angles … which was the wrong thing for digital sensors. There have been disparaging remarks made by reviewers using Sony cameras who were seemingly unaware of the importance of the sensor stack. The upside is that Kölsch lenses are often cheaper yet still excellent on M bodies.

I’d describe the look as having high contrast and resolution, but low contrast at high resolution. But it isn’t a high-resolution smearing; I see blooming over a much larger radius than would be caused by imprecision. Larger, even, than the blooming of cinematic lenses, but less intense for it. Otherwise, they are simply excellent lenses with harmonious drawing, since surpassed in objective measures but retaining a touch of that classic lens look for it. Yet I lack the library of gear needed to compare and demonstrate such things.

[Stuart Richardson]

Some of those lenses are extraordinary, and a very fine balance between optical performance and rendering. My favorites of that era are the 35mm Summilux ASPH M, 50mm 1.4 Summilux R E60, and the 100mm APO Macro Elmarit R. Both are exceptionally sharp when they need to be, but balanced by a beautiful rendering (especially the 50mm R...probably my favorite rendering Leica lenses, though the new APO Summicron L lenses take the cake for me in terms of overall performance). There did seem to be an interplay between the resolution demands of the cameras and the quality of the lenses, as JonPB stated, they don't seem stressed. A lens like the 35mm 1.4 ASPH on the M9, or the 50mm E60 R on film combine to just create lovely lovely images. I think this is where Leica tends to have a leg up over their competitors...especially in the R, S and L mounts. They build their lenses to be a very good match for their bodies/sensors. Rarely do you have a lens that is significantly outclassed by the sensor or film behind it, assuming the vintages are close. They also seem to balance aberrations better than some other lens makers...for example, I did not really have a lot of experience with very bad longitudinal chromatic aberration until I started using non-Leica lenses. It certainly happens in Leica's fast lenses, but it is rarely so bad as to be disruptive to the images, which is not something I can say for some other makers.

One thing that is not always mentioned is ergonomics. I think the lenses of this era were in some ways the peak of ergonomics. I may be an outlier, but I liked the hood and shade setup in the 35mm 1.4 Summilux ASPH better than the FLE version, for example. But it was really noticeable in the R lenses. The 100mm 2.8 APO is an extremely pleasing to handle lens. Nicely weighted, an extremely smooth focusing helical, large texture grip, smooth sliding hood, large but agreeable size... The 50mm 1.4 E60 is even better, in that it was a compact, fast and high performance lens that you could use as a standard quite easily. The E60 size was big at the time for a 50mm, but if you compare it to the 50mm 1.4 SL lens, you will see how far we have fallen in that sense (optical performance is of course higher in the new one, but at a cost...). The older lens was 51mm long and 490g. The new one is 124mm long and 1065g. Performance at 1.4 is much better, but by 5.6 the new lens, while still better, is not that substantially different. At times I wish Leica would stick to the Karbe philosophy of max performance wide open for the summicron lenses, but adopt a more flexible approach to the faster lenses. These days they seem to be growing to immense proportions in search of outdoing other companies who make giant lenses (Sigma, Zeiss etc). I would rather have more lenses like the 75mm Summilux...extremely sharp stopped down, but full of character and GOOD aberrations wide open. Focus on getting rid of the nasty chromatic aberrations, but allow for a bit of spherical aberration or lower contrast.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[105012]

I don’t see much mention of Kleinberg/Zimmermann?

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f%3D_5_cm_1:2

Edited May 29, 2022 by 105012

[Jeff S]

This Kolsch era lens has appreciated nicely…

https://www.setadelstudios.com/products/leica-35mm-summilux-m-f1-4-aa-silver-chrome-aspherical-prototype-11873-lens-1-1
 

Jeff