Rangefinder close than 70cm MFD - what happens?

[johnstonnorth]

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Hello

I've just got my first rangefinder (M11) and was considering picking up a Voigtlander 35mm - either the Nokton or the Ultron.

I understand the Ultron has a MFD of 58cm which will be below the camera's 70cm.

From what I've read this isn't a problem if you are using Live View but I'm curious what happens once you go below 70cm when using the rangefinder patch - does it just appear to not move or change once you go closer than 70cm? Or does it do something else that gives any sort of indication you've gone too far.

Thanks in advance!

 

[wda]

Welcome to the forum.

You will find that a rangefinder camera is not ideal for working at such close distances. Ergonomically it is difficult. But people try to make it a universal camera. A few succeed. Most find an alternative solution. You will have more success working with your M11 at near to medium ranges. 

[TomB_tx]

1 hour ago, johnstonnorth said:

I'm curious what happens once you go below 70cm when using the rangefinder patch - does it just appear to not move or change once you go closer than 70cm? Or does it do something else that gives any sort of indication you've gone too far.

The patch simply stops moving as you pass the minimum RF distance (about 0.7m). As you focus closer the lens continues to move outwards, but the roller in the body stops moving. As you focus closer the lens again contacts the roller and moves it inwards and the RF functions again.

Back in the 1950s Nippon Kogaku (later called Nikon) made a 50mm "close focus" lens for Leica mount, back when the Leica RFs only worked down to 1 meter. That lens had a "click-stop" tactile detent at 1 meter that you felt while focusing. You could continue focusing closer, but the detent signaled that you needed to scale focus (measuring or guessing the distance).

[lct]

I got no focus problem on my M11 the RF of which works as close and even closer than the Ultron 35/2 asph's MFD (0.58m). As to know if it is accurate enough, i have no idea but the pic below has been shot in RF mode at 0.58m and appears normally sharp (M11, CV 35/2 asph, f/2, 0.58m FF and 100% crop).

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[pgk]

To work accurately at close focus distances (for use a wide apertures) the RF base would probably need to be increased and there would quickly be problems doing this. There is also parallax which would need to be compensated for and this will become increasingly tricky as focal length starts to change, and field of view too. There are very good technical reasons why rangefinders are limited in terms of their closest focus and they are difficult to overcome. Using a smaller aperture will help and sometimes sharp pictures can be obtained but its not what a rangefinder is good at sonear focus limits have been set.

[lct]

As shown above 0.7m is not the limit anymore on the M11. How close exactly i don't know but a bit closer than 0.6m anyway. 

[Jeff S]

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49 minutes ago, lct said:

As shown above 0.7m is not the limit anymore on the M11. How close exactly i don't know but a bit closer than 0.6m anyway. 

I’ve seen nothing official from Leica, but don’t you think they’d be promoting any RF improvement heavily given the advent of their new ultra expensive close focusing M lenses, starting with the 35 APO, with more in the way?  Instead, they’ve suggested in presentations I’ve seen that live view/EVF was the best way to optimize use of the closer MFD.

Jeff

Edited May 14, 2022 by Jeff S

[lct]

I can only check facts sorry. M11's MFD on the WATE. 0.57m possibly. Same on the S-A 21/3.4 at a glance. The Ultron's 0.58m MFD are easily met anyway. 

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[Jeff S]

Facts as they appear to one user using one M11 and a specific few lenses. Can’t argue with personal experience, but conclusions regarding specific system improvements remain in question.  Just out of curiosity, did you have the same or worse experience with earlier M bodies and those same lenses?

Edit… someone here did say a while back that someone at Leica spoke of RF refinements in the M11, but the source wasn’t cited, and there was no mention of MFD specifically.  I’m open to more info, but again, I would think that Leica would be hyping any such improvement.

Jeff

Edited May 14, 2022 by Jeff S

[lct]

27 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Facts as they appear to one user using one M11.  Can’t argue with personal experience, but conclusions regarding system improvements remain in question.  Just out of curiosity, did you have the same or worse experience with earlier M bodies and those same lenses?

Worse, better, it depends upon tastes i guess but such an extension of the RF range below the 0.7m usual MFD is not a first experience for me. I could do it down to 0.5m with the Macro-Adapter-M v1 for instance. But with no adapter whatsoever, the M11 is the only rangefinder i know of allowing to focus all the way from infinity to about 0.57m. I mean my copy of the M11 of course as perhaps i am the only man on the Planet Earth to benefit from such an extension .

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, lct said:

 I mean my copy of the M11 of course as perhaps i am the only man on the Planet Earth to benefit from such an extension .

Common around here to have a dozen or so people with a certain gear experience, while many others have a very different experience. Especially when it comes to rangefinder and lens alignment and tolerances.  Let alone when introducing non-Leica lenses like the CV 35 Ultron, which draws mixed comments, including on the subject of close focus. 😏

Jeff

[lct]

41 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Common around here to have a dozen or so people with a certain gear experience, while many others have a very different experience. Especially when it comes to rangefinder and lens alignment and tolerances.  Let alone when introducing non-Leica lenses like the CV 35 Ultron, which draws mixed comments, including on the subject of close focus. 😏

Jeff

What else can i say ? I can currently focus 3 lenses including 2 Leica ones below 0.7m with the M11's rangefinder: CV 35/2 asph, S-A 21/3.4 and WATE 16-18-21/4. You've seen my pics above so believing your own eyes and/or my own words depends only on you .

Edited May 14, 2022 by lct

[Jeff S]

27 minutes ago, lct said:

What else can i say ? I can currently focus 3 lenses including 2 Leica ones below 0.7m with the M11's rangefinder: CV 35/2 asph, S-A 21/3.4 and WATE 16-18-21/4. You've seen my pics above so believing your own eyes and/or my own words depends only on you .

You didn’t understand what I wrote.  I have zero doubt about your experience.

But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that your experience will be shared by every other user, and that Leica did intentionally and specifically improve the close focus ability of the M11. I would still find it remarkable that they didn’t spend five minutes or a nickel promoting it, given a new $9k camera and introducing a similarly priced new lens (with more to come), which is distinguished specifically by its closer MFD. Instead they talk about using LV, EVF or an SL series for close focusing.  Either they: (a) want to promote Viso and SL sales; (b) want to wait to see if they can in fact effectively produce these new lenses in quantity and quality; or (c) have strange marketing tactics.

Jeff

 

[lct]

I don't know Jeff but the OP wanted to know about the Ultron 35/2 asph and i can only tell him that this lens can be focused down to its 0.58m MFD with the rangefinder of my M11. For the record, i can focus 3 other CV lenses closer than 0.7m w/o reaching their MFD though: CV 21/3.5, CV 21/4 and CV 21/4.5 v2. So why Leica did not communicate about this? Perhaps because there are not many Leica M lenses with closer than 0.7m MFD and because the M11's RF capabilities can approach but not reach the MFD of lenses like WATE (0.5m) let alone 35/2 apo (0.3m) but i really have no idea. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by lct

[johnstonnorth]

Thank you @wda for the warm welcome.

And thank you everyone for taking the time to reply - they have assuaged my fears of trying the Ultron.

 

 

[lct]

Just to show what the Ultron 35/2 asph can do on the M11 at 0.58m MFD.

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[adan]

14 hours ago, johnstonnorth said:

I'm curious what happens once you go below 70cm when using the rangefinder patch - does it just appear to not move or change once you go closer than 70cm?

When times were simpler (no M11, no 35mm APO-Summicron, no Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21) the situation was basically this:

Leica warranted that cameras focus accurately down to 0.7m (post M3).

Leica warranted that lenses focus accurately down to the closest  marked  distance on the lens.

Leica builds in some leeway to accomodate minor variations in actual focal lengths (recall that one can get, for example, Leica "90s" that are actually 89.5mm, or 91.6 mm), or the precision of the focus-ring distance markings. The focus rings themselves usually will go past the minimum marked distance, and the camera RFs will usually work a bit closer than 0.7m.

But the guaranteed range is only to the minimum marking (lens) or 0.7m (the cameras). Leica does not test individual cameras or lens beyond those specified limits.

Most lenses will focus fine right down to their minumum stops (closer than the marking). Some (usually longer focal lengths - 90 or 135) may "flat-spot" (RF patch stops moving) somewhere between their minimum marking and the hard-stop. Luck of the draw over 68 years of lenses and cameras (and parts thereof), produced in up to five locations (Wetzlar I, Canada, Solms, Wetzlar II, and Portugal).

Of note, I believe the Leica APO-35 and 16-18-21 lenses have slight detents (gentle click-stops) at 0.7m, and/or  gray  focus markings (see lct's 16-18-21 image above) closer than 0.7m, as a reminder that the RF will likely disconnect at or around that point.

Edited May 15, 2022 by adan

[chasdfg]

My M10M focused fine with the 35 f2 Ultron to 0.58m too. Never switched to LV when shooting at distances under 0.7m after I realised I was getting seemingly accurate focus with the RF. I had a 35lux pre-FLE that went under 0.7m as well (I think they all do? About 0.65m) and the RF appeared to couple till the MFD. Based on my experience, being able to focus slightly closer than 0.7m isn't specific to the M11 (others have reported their ability to focus the 35mm f2 Ultron using the RF of the M10 series under 0.7m as well). 

[hmzimelka]

My M11 decouples with my Ultron 35/2 ASPH a hair before the 0.58m mark... if I recall correctly, my M10M did the same 

Edited May 15, 2022 by hmzimelka

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