1943 Luftwaffen Eigentum

[Randy Cole]

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Hi, new to the forum.  I am hoping to have some input on this camera.  It's my first military Leica, and from what I can see, it's a Luftwaffen Eigentum dating to the beginning of 1943.  I welcome all comments on this camera.

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Edited March 11, 2022 by Randy Cole

[dubois pierre]

Hi Randy, this IIIC K N°390015 was delivred to 28.01.1944 to the Luftwaffe. But the Summitar N°585458 is not military lens. Have you got the K on the curtain (White paint)?. Two inscriptions have been deleted, on the top FI N°38079 and on the back Luftwaffen-Eigentum.

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[Gobert]

@dubois pierre, wasn’t this the red curtain period?

[alan mcfall]

Here are some dates/serials often quoted for IIIc external feature changes. As always, exceptions, upgrades, repairs may produce variances. Many internal changes known to experts, (Jerzy).

Red Curtain 362,401 (Oct. 39)-379,226(July 41)

From 380901   slow speed dial lock

From 374,501 non removable shutter release guard

Edited March 11, 2022 by alan mcfall

[Randy Cole]

@dubois pierrethank you.  There is a K on the curtain, although it is a bit faded.  It is in one of the pictures.  I am curious about your information about the lens, simply because the lens flange has been ground down, so I think that someone removed something there too.  I assumed it was the Luftwaffen Eigentum engraving.  Also @alan mcfall suggested that the shutter release guard should be non-removable.  Considering mine is removed, this is also something I am curious about.

[dubois pierre]

Firstly it is understood that all military Leica IIIC K after the number 388926 had ball bearing shutters. For your Summitar no listed.

[Randy Cole]

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[Randy Cole]

Thank you for the input @dubois pierre, much appreciated.  I have added a couple more photos. The initial upload didn't allow all of the pics. 

 

[jerzy]

to visualize what Alan meant - to right is the one that your should have (double threaded), it was introduced with 374501, on the old one (left) you need to unscrew the collar to mount remote release.

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And to the lens - serial is not listed as Luftwaffen nor WH. Mount seem to me to be nickeled. There were no nickel plated Summitars so chrome plating must have been removed. And it looks like there is separation in the front group, not so uncommon for earlier Summitars

Edited March 11, 2022 by jerzy

[Randy Cole]

Hi @jerzy, thank you for the clarification on the shutter release.  I'm pretty sure the flange of the lens is actually bare brass.  It also shows some marks from sandpaper or a file, it's not perfectly polished, but it appears to have been worked on around the full circumference.  It is a bit shiny (not by me), but some marks are visible in the metal, you can kind of see them in the photo I added above.  Yes, it definitely has separation.

 

Regards,

 

Randy

[alan mcfall]

In a perfect world, your case would have this stamped on top.  They occasionally pop up, but are getting harder to find.  Non-removable was the wrong word for the shutter button guard, it can be removed, but that is only required when removing the top plate.

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[Randy Cole]

@alan mcfall, I was searching the case for some emboss or marking, but alas, it's not the right case :-).

[dubois pierre]

13 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

Here are some dates/serials often quoted for IIIc external feature changes. As always, exceptions, upgrades, repairs may produce variances. Many internal changes known to experts, (Jerzy).

Red Curtain 362,401 (Oct. 39)-379,226(July 41)

From 380901   slow speed dial lock

From 374,501 non removable shutter release guard

Hi Alan, it seems to me that the first IIIc body with a red curtain is the 362402.  Many assumptions about these red fabric curtains. Some say that due to a shortage of black cloth (priority to the war effort parachutes) a red fabric was used. Leitz in 1937 used red cloth on a small number of Leica IIIs for tropical expeditions with strong sunlight. Most likely, after No. 362401, Leitz would have used red tinted fabric from Kodak. The black curtains reappear after N° 379226, but already 14'000 IIIc bodies had received this famous red curtain. In any case the presence of this red curtain can bring a value of more than 50% to the camera.

[dubois pierre]

 

In my ex collection I had this rare Leica IIIc chromed N°374392 (1941) with a red curtain with eagle and swastika engraving (Reichsadler).

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[jerzy]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb dubois pierre:

t seems to me that the first IIIc body with a red curtain is the 362402

Pierre, not so important, but "Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen" (Vidom Spezial) says it was from 362401 (ab in German). Yes, red curtains add value, however it is not so easy to find them not damaged. Very often you see black or even sometimes white dots on the red fabric. Usualy opening curtain (to inspect the red fabric side you need to take off the body shell) is better than the closing one. Black curtains havbe 2 layers: black fabric and rubber. Red curtains have 3 layers: red fabric, white layer (rubber or paint or whatever) and then comes black rubber. For unknown reasons there seem to be a chemical reaction between white layer and black rubber which becomes soft and sticky, sticks to the red fabric of opening curtain when shutter is wound. Strange enough, the detorations is only on the part of curtain which is glued to the shutter drum. So I believe this process has something to do with the chemical reaction between glue and white layer. Therefore, on my 2 red curtain cameras with non damaged curtains I did preventive remove curtains from the drums, cleaned drums from old glue and reglued the curtains. In 40-50 years we will see if this was needed, if it helped 🙂

[dubois pierre]

Yes Jerzy for the problem of the red curtains it is one of the explanations, another possible which accentuates the degradation, the strong light on the curtains by the lens which acts like a magnifying glass.

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[dubois pierre]

 

In few seconds the support is damaged. This is why during expeditions with strong sunlight it was recommended to put
 the caps back on the lens.

My experience with the xenon.

https://www.facebook.com/phoebebridgers/videos/387568852315403

[dubois pierre]

Oups sorry mistake!!.

[dubois pierre]

During expeditions with strong sunlight it was advised to the users of cameras with curtains to protect the lenses with their caps. Indeed it could occur a magnifying effect on the curtains with a strong heat damaging them.

https://www.facebook.com/pierre.dubois.3557440/videos/365117985624042/?notif_id=1647268124927773&notif_t=video_processed&ref=notif

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[luigi bertolotti]

I am not expert on military Leicas... never had one... so I have a curiosity : is it normal to have - base removed - the usual "sticker" for film loading instructions in 4 languages ? After all, they were made for German users only... 

Btw... the depicted IIIck shows a small crack on vulcanite, but the paint is really fine... I wonder if it can be one of the cameras that passed "new or next to" from Wetzlar (or some military warehouse) to US military people during the occupation period., after (roughly) deleting their military writings.

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by luigi bertolotti