Leica APS-C -- No more!

[lct]

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1 minute ago, Le Chef said:

Then I'm sure you would have good pointers for Leica as to best practices when it comes to engaging and communicating with customers, dealers and staff.

Leica is an old lady who does not need me to stay alive. 

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[IkarusJohn]

You doubt Leica is profitable?

Well, I guess all we can rely on is what little is published (as Leica is a private company).  What we can deduce is that among the big producers - Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji -  their photographic divisions are far from profitable and are supported by their other, much larger business divisions.  Leica Camera AG, conversely, relies on its photographic sales.  Can I provide figures on Leica's profitability?  Nothing more than what has been posted here.  What public information we have is that Leica is profitable.  A quick Google gives performance information showing revenues of around 400 million Euro, and profitability increases which other makes would cherish.

Recent information is not so easy to find.  I'm sure our German members have a better grasp.  This website gives a picture of the Japanese manufacturers' struggles with declining profits - https://fstoppers.com/originals/covid-devastation-financial-results-sony-wins-canon-holds-nikon-way-out-516408.

In general terms, being a camera maker is a difficult place to be - there is blood on the floor, from everything I have read.  This article is an interesting read - https://fstoppers.com/business/sony-altered-camera-market-forever-575067.  

Also this opinion piece, suggesting that medium format (or M4/3) is the future - https://fstoppers.com/medium-format/why-should-consider-abandoning-full-frame-and-aps-c-and-go-something-more-590382 Not sure I see M4/3 surviving the phenomenal increase in quality of cellphones (I'd be interested in the Leitz 1 phone, if it ever makes it out of Japan).

There are other websites, but I don't think anyone can argue that making cameras is anything but a difficult business to be in.

Two points are really central to this thread:

(1) Leica's apparent decision to stop (or at least delay) further development of its APS-C cameras.  First, Leica has given the L mount APS-C cameras a pretty good shot (three T versions and the CL in varying guises - Paul Smith, Bauhaus, Jungle (whatever that was)), yet it is safe to assume that sales do not justify continuing with APS-C (for the moment at least), and anecdotal evidence seems to be that there is no further development.  I don't imagine Leica stopping a profitable product.

I'm guessing that Leica has decided that its future, and its profits, lie in the full frame segment - it's where its investment has been, and as the inventor of the 24x36 format, that is understandable.  Its M11 release seems to be aimed at achieving the best image quality you can get out of that format.  Its recent lenses also suggest a commitment to quality in that format.  They obviously know something we don't.  It's Dr Kaufmann's company, so he can do what he likes.

(2) It's communication with its customers and its marketing.  Well, it does things its own way.  It hasn't behaved any differently with the APS-C cameras than it does with its other systems, from what I can see.  It has had a few nose bleeds over the years - its summary discontinuing of the R system, with its excellent lenses (which would have sent it broke had they not dumped it); the luxury association with Hermes; the terrible marketing campaign for the X-Vario and quietly dumping the X system, to name but some of their marketing/communication fumbling.

So, it has returned to what it sees as its successful approach - making excellent cameras and lenses, and keeping its plans to itself.  If you look at the overheated excitement over the M11 release, you get some idea of what Leica contends with.  It's just a camera release, for heaven's sake!  

If you accept that Leica primarily makes lenses and cameras as well as they can, and that is really all they are interested in, then I think their approach to their business is understandable. I rather like it. What marketing does (the X-Vario being an example) is to create excitement which the end result rarely lives up to.  They have released their programme for future releases in the past (the L mount lenses, the S3 and S system lenses) and have been caned for not achieving those projected release dates.  Why did they fail?  Not because they were distracted by watches and special editions, but because they were struggling to actually get the lenses to a quality standard where they could be released.  Look at the APO 50 Summicron - it was hard to make, hard to buy, expensive, and they had to recall it because of internal reflection; the APO 35 Summicron is almost impossible to find; there are quality control issues with the M-A; and its latest release, the M11, seems to have some issues.

A long post, I can't really think why I have written, to simply say that Leica is more interested in achieving excellence in its products, rather than pandering to complaints about the decisions it makes, which are now history (apparently).They like making cameras and lenses.  I for one like my TL2.  When it has needed repair, Leica has fixed it.  It still works.  There is nothing Leica might say about its APS-C strategy which will change that.  When my TL2 dies, the photographic world will be different again with other choices.  I'm hoping my other Leica cameras will still be functional, and Leica will fix them when needed.

I'm not sure that sharing with Leica how poorly you think of their marketing efforts and their owner/chief executive will make any difference to anything.

[tritentrue]

As someone mentioned previously in the thread, Leica Singapore has reduced CL prices by 20%.  Discounts on their official store's website here are usually convoluted into bundle prices, not outright markdowns.  So . . . are they desperate to clear remaining stock to make room for a new model?  Or just desperate to divest themselves of remaining stock of an old product?

Either way, the "sale" prices are still almost double what secondhand copies actually sell for here.  For a while it looked as though popularity in the used market had gotten a bump, but a secondhand shop owner friend confirmed to me that it's not so.

As for Leica failing to control their own narrative on the product, well, if you don't say or do anything, by default you cede control. Maybe they are sure of their market stature, or just confident that their fanboys will continue to talk them up (as is evidenced in this thread).

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

You doubt Leica is profitable?

Well, I guess all we can rely on is what little is published (as Leica is a private company).  What we can deduce is that among the big producers - Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji -  their photographic divisions are far from profitable and are supported by their other, much larger business divisions.  Leica Camera AG, conversely, relies on its photographic sales.  Can I provide figures on Leica's profitability?  Nothing more than what has been posted here.  What public information we have is that Leica is profitable.  A quick Google gives performance information showing revenues of around 400 million Euro, and profitability increases which other makes would cherish.

Recent information is not so easy to find.  I'm sure our German members have a better grasp.  This website gives a picture of the Japanese manufacturers' struggles with declining profits - https://fstoppers.com/originals/covid-devastation-financial-results-sony-wins-canon-holds-nikon-way-out-516408.

In general terms, being a camera maker is a difficult place to be - there is blood on the floor, from everything I have read.  This article is an interesting read - https://fstoppers.com/business/sony-altered-camera-market-forever-575067.  

Also this opinion piece, suggesting that medium format (or M4/3) is the future - https://fstoppers.com/medium-format/why-should-consider-abandoning-full-frame-and-aps-c-and-go-something-more-590382 Not sure I see M4/3 surviving the phenomenal increase in quality of cellphones (I'd be interested in the Leitz 1 phone, if it ever makes it out of Japan).

There are other websites, but I don't think anyone can argue that making cameras is anything but a difficult business to be in.

Two points are really central to this thread:

(1) Leica's apparent decision to stop (or at least delay) further development of its APS-C cameras.  First, Leica has given the L mount APS-C cameras a pretty good shot (three T versions and the CL in varying guises - Paul Smith, Bauhaus, Jungle (whatever that was)), yet it is safe to assume that sales do not justify continuing with APS-C (for the moment at least), and anecdotal evidence seems to be that there is no further development.  I don't imagine Leica stopping a profitable product.

I'm guessing that Leica has decided that its future, and its profits, lie in the full frame segment - it's where its investment has been, and as the inventor of the 24x36 format, that is understandable.  Its M11 release seems to be aimed at achieving the best image quality you can get out of that format.  Its recent lenses also suggest a commitment to quality in that format.  They obviously know something we don't.  It's Dr Kaufmann's company, so he can do what he likes.

(2) It's communication with its customers and its marketing.  Well, it does things its own way.  It hasn't behaved any differently with the APS-C cameras than it does with its other systems, from what I can see.  It has had a few nose bleeds over the years - its summary discontinuing of the R system, with its excellent lenses (which would have sent it broke had they not dumped it); the luxury association with Hermes; the terrible marketing campaign for the X-Vario and quietly dumping the X system, to name but some of their marketing/communication fumbling.

So, it has returned to what it sees as its successful approach - making excellent cameras and lenses, and keeping its plans to itself.  If you look at the overheated excitement over the M11 release, you get some idea of what Leica contends with.  It's just a camera release, for heaven's sake!  

If you accept that Leica primarily makes lenses and cameras as well as they can, and that is really all they are interested in, then I think their approach to their business is understandable. I rather like it. What marketing does (the X-Vario being an example) is to create excitement which the end result rarely lives up to.  They have released their programme for future releases in the past (the L mount lenses, the S3 and S system lenses) and have been caned for not achieving those projected release dates.  Why did they fail?  Not because they were distracted by watches and special editions, but because they were struggling to actually get the lenses to a quality standard where they could be released.  Look at the APO 50 Summicron - it was hard to make, hard to buy, expensive, and they had to recall it because of internal reflection; the APO 35 Summicron is almost impossible to find; there are quality control issues with the M-A; and its latest release, the M11, seems to have some issues.

A long post, I can't really think why I have written, to simply say that Leica is more interested in achieving excellence in its products, rather than pandering to complaints about the decisions it makes, which are now history (apparently).They like making cameras and lenses.  I for one like my TL2.  When it has needed repair, Leica has fixed it.  It still works.  There is nothing Leica might say about its APS-C strategy which will change that.  When my TL2 dies, the photographic world will be different again with other choices.  I'm hoping my other Leica cameras will still be functional, and Leica will fix them when needed.

I'm not sure that sharing with Leica how poorly you think of their marketing efforts and their owner/chief executive will make any difference to anything.

No one questions the excellence of the product or we would not be here. The issue continues to be poor communication which is recognized to damage organizations that ignore this at their peril. It usually results in poor stock price, staff, supplier and dealer dissatisfaction which leads to poor product development, poor marketing, declining sales and margins and staff churn.

This is why the issue is frustrating - it's easily fixable by management who understand and care about the consequences.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Le Chef

[IkarusJohn]

8 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

No one questions the excellence of the product or we would not be here. The issue continues to be poor communication which is recognized to damage organizations that ignore this at their peril. It usually results in poor stock price, staff, supplier and dealer dissatisfaction which leads to poor product development, poor marketing, declining sales and margins and staff churn.

This is why the issue is frustrating - it's easily fixable by management who understand and care about the consequences.

And yet …

[crf59]

Of course any decision Leica came to related to continuing APS-C was money-driven. If you think otherwise I have swamp land....

However, I am still very disappointed as the CL is my favorite camera. I own lots of cameras including an M10-P, Q-P, SL2-S, SL, M6, M3, IIIG, etc, etc. My herd also includes many Nikons and a few dogs and cats. The CL has great IQ, is a great travel camera, and has simple operation and solid build. The native lenses are great to boot.

I was really hoping Leica would make a CL2 with weather sealing and IBIS. It would truly be, for me, the perfect camera. I know all the rangefinder lovers will criticize me for saying so, but I believe as a tool for everyday use, the CL is the best camera Leica has made. Rangefinders are cool, but my 63-year-old eyes can't focus them well any more and they really are better optimized for street shooting (I'll admit I LOVE holding my Ms). My SLs are beasts - I keep my arms muscles in shape by carrying them around. They are frankly too big and heavy regardless of what people say - yet exceedingly well made.

The CL does it all AND can use M lenses with good focus peaking. Small, light, capable.

My real concern is long term viability. I have 3 CLs and a TL2, so I expect I will have an operating camera for some time. But have you tried to buy a CL battery lately? Even worse, a TL2 battery - had to buy a new-old-stock one recently. 10 years from now I am afraid I'll have paperweights lying around. Fortunately I have lots of cameras... Maybe I'll be "forced" to buy an M11 :)

[baretta]

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1 hour ago, crf59 said:

Of course any decision Leica came to related to continuing APS-C was money-driven. If you think otherwise I have swamp land....

However, I am still very disappointed as the CL is my favorite camera. I own lots of cameras including an M10-P, Q-P, SL2-S, SL, M6, M3, IIIG, etc, etc. My herd also includes many Nikons and a few dogs and cats. The CL has great IQ, is a great travel camera, and has simple operation and solid build. The native lenses are great to boot.

I was really hoping Leica would make a CL2 with weather sealing and IBIS. It would truly be, for me, the perfect camera. I know all the rangefinder lovers will criticize me for saying so, but I believe as a tool for everyday use, the CL is the best camera Leica has made. Rangefinders are cool, but my 63-year-old eyes can't focus them well any more and they really are better optimized for street shooting (I'll admit I LOVE holding my Ms). My SLs are beasts - I keep my arms muscles in shape by carrying them around. They are frankly too big and heavy regardless of what people say - yet exceedingly well made.

The CL does it all AND can use M lenses with good focus peaking. Small, light, capable.

My real concern is long term viability. I have 3 CLs and a TL2, so I expect I will have an operating camera for some time. But have you tried to buy a CL battery lately? Even worse, a TL2 battery - had to buy a new-old-stock one recently. 10 years from now I am afraid I'll have paperweights lying around. Fortunately I have lots of cameras... Maybe I'll be "forced" to buy an M11

U can buy sigma or lumix battery. Or probably no name brand. 

[Enrique Santa]

On 3/24/2022 at 12:33 AM, IkarusJohn said:

Two points are really central to this thread:

(1) Leica's apparent decision to stop (or at least delay) further development of its APS-C cameras.  First, Leica has given the L mount APS-C cameras a pretty good shot (three T versions and the CL in varying guises - Paul Smith, Bauhaus, Jungle (whatever that was)), yet it is safe to assume that sales do not justify continuing with APS-C (for the moment at least), and anecdotal evidence seems to be that there is no further development.  I don't imagine Leica stopping a profitable product.

I'm guessing that Leica has decided that its future, and its profits, lie in the full frame segment - it's where its investment has been, and as the inventor of the 24x36 format, that is understandable.  Its M11 release seems to be aimed at achieving the best image quality you can get out of that format.  Its recent lenses also suggest a commitment to quality in that format.  They obviously know something we don't.  It's Dr Kaufmann's company, so he can do what he likes.

(2) It's communication with its customers and its marketing.  Well, it does things its own way.  It hasn't behaved any differently with the APS-C cameras than it does with its other systems, from what I can see.  It has had a few nose bleeds over the years - its summary discontinuing of the R system, with its excellent lenses (which would have sent it broke had they not dumped it); the luxury association with Hermes; the terrible marketing campaign for the X-Vario and quietly dumping the X system, to name but some of their marketing/communication fumbling.

So, it has returned to what it sees as its successful approach - making excellent cameras and lenses, and keeping its plans to itself.  If you look at the overheated excitement over the M11 release, you get some idea of what Leica contends with.  It's just a camera release, for heaven's sake!  

If you accept that Leica primarily makes lenses and cameras as well as they can, and that is really all they are interested in, then I think their approach to their business is understandable. I rather like it. What marketing does (the X-Vario being an example) is to create excitement which the end result rarely lives up to.  They have released their programme for future releases in the past (the L mount lenses, the S3 and S system lenses) and have been caned for not achieving those projected release dates.  Why did they fail?  Not because they were distracted by watches and special editions, but because they were struggling to actually get the lenses to a quality standard where they could be released.  Look at the APO 50 Summicron - it was hard to make, hard to buy, expensive, and they had to recall it because of internal reflection; the APO 35 Summicron is almost impossible to find; there are quality control issues with the M-A; and its latest release, the M11, seems to have some issues.

A long post, I can't really think why I have written, to simply say that Leica is more interested in achieving excellence in its products, rather than pandering to complaints about the decisions it makes, which are now history (apparently).They like making cameras and lenses.  I for one like my TL2.  When it has needed repair, Leica has fixed it.  It still works.  There is nothing Leica might say about its APS-C strategy which will change that.  When my TL2 dies, the photographic world will be different again with other choices.  I'm hoping my other Leica cameras will still be functional, and Leica will fix them when needed.

I'm not sure that sharing with Leica how poorly you think of their marketing efforts and their owner/chief executive will make any difference to anything.

Sorry but I can't understand your two points. Can you tell us what camera  brand is not searching for the excellence in their products?. Please tell us one.

Leica was the inventor of full frame film cameras, but this is only valid for "film cameras" the ASPC sensors are way better than any full frame film camera. With bigger sensors you can gain , say 7%-5% in IQ . Is this a vital argument for street photography, or portrait , even for architectural photography: NO

Is this an argument for casual or family photography: NO

Is this a valid argument for pros?, perhaps for some of them, but in this case get prepared your wallet for 5k or 11k if the cam is an "excellent" M 11.

At this point do you think the excellent Job of Leica only have sense in M series?. I think you are wrong, why it is not the same excellence the rule for ALL their products? . Only rich fullframers are the coustomers of Leica?. Let me explain, you can buy an excellent ff cam for 3k with plenty more functions than a Leica, but we do love Leica and waste almost 4 times this price for an M11...oh yes it's a unique rangefinder. 

For almost the same reason we could pay 2 times the price of any Fuji for Leica CL excellence. 

Your second post is even worst. Leica marketing people are absotly nerds, not only this...they have lied all of us. I bought my CL and four lenses, because Leica SELL ME AN AMAZING NEW SYSTEM, and I absolutly confident in Leica, though, ok this is great, lets go into it.

Ok I have spend almost 10k in their new system , a new system that have last 5 years, great. A new system that now seems that Leica lets fall without say a word to their coustomers, or at last give us the hope for a ff sucessor, that offer a new life to our lenses. A new system that now worth NOTHING.

Have more sense to me a product line with APSC, M's and Q's that the way choosed by Leica...Entry point 6.000€  Q or S without any lens. No sense at all even with the "excellence" of Leica. Musseums and collectors must be their new coustomers, but don't count with me.

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Enrique Santa

[idusidusi]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:47 AM, nicci78 said:

https://www.dpreview.com/videos/7718872458/getting-to-know-sony-s-trio-of-compact-24mm-40mm-and-50mm-g-prime-lenses

 

Sponsor content to show how Sony plan to kill APS-C with a bunch of tiny prime lenses combined with their smallest bodies

Yes I have the 24/50, with de-clickable aperture these are great for video. They also take good quality images.

[idusidusi]

2 hours ago, baretta said:

U can buy sigma or lumix battery. Or probably no name brand. 

Exactly! So no power problem.

[lct]

5 hours ago, crf59 said:

I was really hoping Leica would make a CL2 with weather sealing and IBIS. It would truly be, for me, the perfect camera. I know all the rangefinder lovers will criticize me for saying so, but I believe as a tool for everyday use, the CL is the best camera Leica has made.

I won't certainly criticize you for that as i like much my CL too but for believing that Leica can sell with profit an APS-C camera at Leica prices currently .

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Enrique Santa said:

Have more sense to me a product line with APSC, M's and Q's that the way choosed by Leica...Entry point 6.000€  Q or S without any lens. No sense at all even with the "excellence" of Leica. Musseums and collectors must be their new coustomers, but don't count with me.

Sure, other manufacturers make excellent equipment, but I’m not sure you can say they have the same fixation as Leica without regard for cost, for example making lenses like the fantastic R 80/1.4, 180/2.8 and 280/4 lenses, and the compact M lenses and new SL lenses.  These are made with passion, but they have to sell.

It would appear, though we don’t know, that Leica has stopped development of the APS-C system.  They are a small company.  Why would they discontinue a great system if it was making money?    

Cheers
John

Edited March 25, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[Le Chef]

Mercedes Benz for a long time would design and build cars for excellence, with little regard for cost. At some point in the 80’s they understood that they were pricing themselves out of the market and that they needed cheaper models that would encourage younger buyers to Mercedes. As part of that process learned from other manufacturers, particularly the Japanese that identify price points where you can compete and than reverse engineer  all aspects of that model down to the cost of an individual washer. 
 

You can have both excellence, margin and affordability if you do it this way. I wonder if Leica’s managment used these lessons when developing the T/TL/TL2/CL APSC models?

Edited March 25, 2022 by Le Chef

[tritentrue]

Some years back, Mr. Kobayashi, head of Cosina, shared some of his business philosophy:

“Usually we first design the very best possible lens, regardless of glass price,” explains Kobayashi. “Then we try to substitute less expensive elements wherever possible without noticeably affecting quality. We stop when we have lowered production costs sufficiently, but have retained quality, and where the difference from our original lens will be negligible to the user.”

Looks as though it's worked nicely with the current Voigtlander VM series.  To my eyes, it appears that Leica has attempted this with some products while still trying to maintain the "built to a quality level" impression, and without passing any benefits of cost reduction on to their customers.

[lct]

15 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

To my eyes, it appears that Leica has attempted this with some products while still trying to maintain the "built to a quality level" impression, and without passing any benefits of cost reduction on to their customers.

Are you referring to this?

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3921484728/leicasummaritm

[tritentrue]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

Are you referring to this?

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3921484728/leicasummaritm

No, not the Summarit line.

One example might be the 2.4mp Visoflex 020, which retails here for the equivalent of 563 Euros, is made in Indonesia, and the plastic casing of which is prone to cracking. Cameras with innards of questionable origin (e.g. X-Vario) might also fit.  Unsubstantiated AFAIK, of course, which is why I qualified my statement with "to my eyes, it appears..."

[Louis]

1 hour ago, tritentrue said:

No, not the Summarit line.

One example might be the 2.4mp Visoflex 020, which retails here for the equivalent of 563 Euros, is made in Indonesia, and the plastic casing of which is prone to cracking. Cameras with innards of questionable origin (e.g. X-Vario) might also fit.  Unsubstantiated AFAIK, of course, which is why I qualified my statement with "to my eyes, it appears..."

Isn't Visoflex  made by Seiko/Epson?

Actually, I did have the problem of the plastic cracking and Leica in Wetzlar told me they don't have any spare part available for Visoflex!!!... Happily, someone in Leica USA found one on a defective Visoflex and sent it to me!... Imagine; you pay that much for an item and you have to trow it away because a simple plastic part is not available!...

Edited March 26, 2022 by Louis

[tritentrue]

I don't know who makes the 020, Louis, but the last two I owned were stamped "Made in Indonesia"  on the inside of the swivel joint.  Epson has a facility there in Batam, probably no more than twenty miles across the strait from here. 

When I had a problem with the Visoflex not functioning on my TL2 back in 2017, the service department at Leica Camera Asia Pacific asked me to bring both camera and Visoflex in for inspection.  The problem turned out to be the hot shoe.  But had it been the 6-week-old Visoflex, Leica told me that I would have to replace it myself, as they are not repairable and not covered by warranty!

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[idusidusi]

4 hours ago, Louis said:

Isn't Visoflex  made by Seiko/Epson?

Actually, I did have the problem of the plastic cracking and Leica in Wetzlar told me they don't have any spare part available for Visoflex!!!... Happily, someone in Leica USA found one on a defective Visoflex and sent it to me!... Imagine; you pay that much for an item and you have to trow it away because a simple plastic part is not available!...

I think that is unacceptable.

[idusidusi]

4 hours ago, tritentrue said:

I don't know who makes the 020, Louis, but the last two I owned were stamped "Made in Indonesia"  on the inside of the swivel joint.  Epson has a facility there in Batam, probably no more than twenty miles across the strait from here. 

When I had a problem with the Visoflex not functioning on my TL2 back in 2017, the service department at Leica Camera Asia Pacific asked me to bring both camera and Visoflex in for inspection.  The problem turned out to be the hot shoe.  But had it been the 6-week-old Visoflex, Leica told me that I would have to replace it myself, as they are not repairable and not covered by warranty!

 

I think this is also unacceptable.

 

"Leica told me that I would have to replace it myself, as they are not repairable and not covered by warranty!" that suggests they farm it out for production and are not prepared to take any responsibility for the quality. Now to me that suggest a) the price should be substantially lower or b) they should produce elsewhere where quality levels are higher.

Of course I do not have one, and did not plan to buy one for my M11, so I only have what I read on this forum as my 'knowledge'. I also understand that a forum is a place where we all ask if 'something is wrong with something' now and again when we have a problem and I don't have a problem with that.