Leica APS-C -- No more!

[LACANYONHIKER]

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36 minutes ago, Rusty said:

But there will be cameras for them. A bunch of still functioning 2nd hand Leica TL's and CL's. Go and check Nikon 1 forums and ebay. You can still buy perfectly good older Nikon 1 cameras that still function and enable you to use your Nikon 1 lenses. And those who chose to change to get newer sensor or camera technology sell their lenses and the people who bought 2nd hand cameras buy even more 2nd hand lenses.

Eventually they all get too old or stop working but until then there is always someone who wants one. You can still buy Leica X1's dating from 2008 or 9. Thats 13 years ago, they still work fine and still fetch hundreds of dollars. yes its old tech but its a leica and there are people out there who have always wanted to own a leica and will buy one.

 

I LOVED my Nikon V1. I wish I had never sold it.

[nicci78]

Did Leica really think that we will let CL/TL system go away quietly ? 
I really think that they should reconsider their position. 
If we let them stop APS-C part of L-mount. Nothing will prevent them to stop the whole L-mount in the future. 
 

Leica way of thinking : CL sales has slow down considerably. 
TL2 last inventory did not move from distributors shelves for ages. 
Let’s stop the whole thing. 
 

Customers’ point of view : no new lens since 2017. No firmware update for TL2 since 2018. CL is now quite old and need an update since end of 2020 or early 2021. Hence everybody is holding its breath for CL2. 
 

My conclusion : CL did not sell well anymore, due to lens line up being stuck in the past and to being to old for the market. 

CL2 with IBIS and weather sealing would have fly of the shelves. 

[Ivar B]

There will be thousands of APS-C users with excellent Leica lenses who will cry out for a new camera. It is not unthinkable that someone will listen. 
Panasonic has said no, perhaps Leica has given up, but later we could have new alliance members. APS-C simply makes sense. 50/50?

[dkCambridgeshire]

If Leica APS-C was a viable / profitable product, i.e., if potential sales could justify further product development, Leica Camera AG would likely pump some investment and resources into the format. We cannot expect Leica Camera AG to continue subsidising the relatively few Leica APS-C users / potential users. Leica Camera AG is a business ... not a charity. The Leica future is full frame ... not APS-C. If you want a decent 'L-mount' APS-C platform, consider acquiring e.g. a Panasonic S1R (20.68mp in APS-C mode) ... and a bigger camera bag ... or wait for the next L mount FF, large MP sensor compact. The CL was a solution for all those who repeatedly criticised  the TL /  TL2's lack of a built-in EVF; Leica likely bent over backwards to provide the CL and please the Leica APS-C fraternity ... but the sales did not / do not justify continued development & production. Please do not blame Leica ... they had to utilise the 'add on' and 'built-in' EVFs available at the time ... those EVF's were not designed by Leica ... they were / are made by EPSON. Modern digital cameras' parts are sourced from a multitude of third parties ... they are not made 'in house' by Leica. And also consider the possibility that those third party suppliers might require orders of many thousands more components than Leica can place with them ... to justify their production. Also consider the effect of Covid on camera production and sales during the last two years.  

[tritentrue]

1 hour ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

If Leica APS-C was a viable / profitable product, i.e., if potential sales could justify further product development, Leica Camera AG would likely pump some investment and resources into the format. We cannot expect Leica Camera AG to continue subsidising the relatively few Leica APS-C users / potential users. Leica Camera AG is a business ... not a charity. The Leica future is full frame ... not APS-C. If you want a decent 'L-mount' APS-C platform, consider acquiring e.g. a Panasonic S1R (20.68mp in APS-C mode) ... and a bigger camera bag ... or wait for the next L mount FF, large MP sensor compact. The CL was a solution for all those who repeatedly criticised  the TL /  TL2's lack of a built-in EVF; Leica likely bent over backwards to provide the CL and please the Leica APS-C fraternity ... but the sales did not / do not justify continued development & production. Please do not blame Leica ... they had to utilise the 'add on' and 'built-in' EVFs available at the time ... those EVF's were not designed by Leica ... they were / are made by EPSON. Modern digital cameras' parts are sourced from a multitude of third parties ... they are not made 'in house' by Leica. And also consider the possibility that those third party suppliers might require orders of many thousands more components than Leica can place with them ... to justify their production. Also consider the effect of Covid on camera production and sales during the last two years.  

We've been repeatedly reminded of and have considered all those things.  We've read at least half a dozen or more "inside Leica" accounts of poor sales, difficulties in sourcing components, etc., from all the people here who purport to be privy to Leica's most intimate inner circles of information.  We've been lectured by most of the high-post-count forum "experts."

We've been disparaged as people looking for a "cheap" Leica.   Some of us have been mischaracterized as being "angry" at Leica when nothing could be further from the truth.  Disappointed?  Sure; but this thread persists mostly because of people who use and appreciate the CL and other Leica APS-C products.  

Regardless of what Leica does, whether anyone there even bothers to read what we express here, this is a Leica-themed forum.  Because we continue to use it to express our thoughts on the APS-C line doesn't necessarily mean that we haven't "considered" what might affect Leica's choices. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, Ivar B said:

There will be thousands of APS-C users with excellent Leica lenses who will cry out for a new camera. It is not unthinkable that someone will listen. 
Panasonic has said no, perhaps Leica has given up, but later we could have new alliance members. APS-C simply makes sense. 50/50?

APS-C may make sense, expensive APS-C does not. 90/10

[FrozenInTime]

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3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

My conclusion : CL did not sell well anymore, due to lens line up being stuck in the past and to being to old for the market. 

CL2 with IBIS and weather sealing would have fly of the shelves. 

CL2 with IBIS and weather sealing would have ticked the boxes for me, but a refresh of the lenses would have also been needed to complete the seal.

Over the winter, I decided to see how the SL2-S performed as vacation and as an all weather system. I had been using it with solely with M lenses, so bought the Sigma 35/2 and Panasonic 50/1.8. It was nowhere as pleasant an experience as using the CL with 18-56 outdoors and 35/1.4 indoors. Outside with the SL2-S I got dust changing lenses and indoors it was too bulky to use discreetly ( I soon switched to the backup GRIIIx indoors ). The SL 24–70 would solve the outdoor dust in windy and wet conditions, but compared to the 18-56 it is both bulky and weighty. I will go back to using the SL2-S as a night use camera with the 40/1.2 glued to it.

Somewhat disappointed with the experience, I bought a X100V to use as a beater camera, I previously had a X100F, but it really annoyed me with the control settings forever changing through unwanted button and D-pad activation. That X100F I could not sell fast enough to buy a CL. This new X100V solved most of the X100F annoyances and for now I am enjoying the OVF, 1:1 frame lines, close focus ability, inbuilt ND and weather sealing. It would not surprise me if the next X100 iteration gets IBIS. The danger is if I continue to find the Fuji adequate for my needs, why should I go back to Leica.

Edited April 13, 2022 by FrozenInTime

[dkCambridgeshire]

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result ... happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result ... misery. " 

But some of you still expect Leica Camera AG to risk throwing itself to the wolves to produce loss making products ... which if produced could jeopardize development of its other successful product lines.

Few sensible people operate their credit cards with permanent debit balances incurring expensive monthly interest payments ... But some of you suggest / expect Leica Camera AG could / should operate at a loss to provide your hardware? From where would Leica 'make up' the $£€ shortfall? 

 

[Mr.Prime]

And why can’t they make money? Others are making money without charging eye watering prices.

[lct]

Just now, Mr.Prime said:

And why can’t they make money? Others are making money without charging eye watering prices.

Leica is not Fuji the same way as Rolex is not Seiko and Ferrari is not Fiat. Products are not the same, markets are not the same either .

[Mr.Prime]

Leica would be doing a lot better if they were Rolex judging by how Rolex seem to be maintaining their product lines.

But I do accept without reservation that a business shall be run as a business. Leica had confidence enough to launch the CL, they must have done their homework at the time. Either it was wrong from the start (wrong product, wrong price) or the competition simply beat them out. And perhaps it's the case that Fuji has beaten them. Where does this leave Leica's strategy looking forward ?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[lct]

Just now, Mr.Prime said:

Leica would be doing a lot better if they were Rolex.

Yet you don't ask Rolex to sell at Seiko prices do you.  

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

If Leica APS-C was a viable / profitable product, i.e., if potential sales could justify further product development, Leica Camera AG would likely pump some investment and resources into the format. We cannot expect Leica Camera AG to continue subsidising the relatively few Leica APS-C users / potential users. Leica Camera AG is a business ... not a charity. The Leica future is full frame ... not APS-C. If you want a decent 'L-mount' APS-C platform, consider acquiring e.g. a Panasonic S1R (20.68mp in APS-C mode) ... and a bigger camera bag ... or wait for the next L mount FF, large MP sensor compact. The CL was a solution for all those who repeatedly criticised  the TL /  TL2's lack of a built-in EVF; Leica likely bent over backwards to provide the CL and please the Leica APS-C fraternity ... but the sales did not / do not justify continued development & production. Please do not blame Leica ... they had to utilise the 'add on' and 'built-in' EVFs available at the time ... those EVF's were not designed by Leica ... they were / are made by EPSON. Modern digital cameras' parts are sourced from a multitude of third parties ... they are not made 'in house' by Leica. And also consider the possibility that those third party suppliers might require orders of many thousands more components than Leica can place with them ... to justify their production. Also consider the effect of Covid on camera production and sales during the last two years.  

I suspect most CL/T buyers were NOT attracted by APS-C, but by the small size and low weight - what Leica has been known for since it was founded. Suggesting the user base should switch to a S1R is simply ludicrous. 

Leica may well have painted itself into a corner by making their small camera APS-C. Personally I would be happy with a small full frame equivalent*, but of course that would mean relegating APS-C lenses to a narrow niche of use which many would not like - not least because of the cost of new lenses. (Mind you, most camera manufacturers have painted themselves into a corner, by offering large, heavy, user-hostile cameras. Most of their market has shifted to smartphones.)

What's your source of info on sales of different Leica models? (Or is it "Leica is discontinuing the CL, therefore sales are low"?)

 

* Please don't suggest a M11 as an alternative - different gestalt, different usage, different functionality. The Sony A7C (notwithstanding the poor EVF) shows that its possible to be in the right ballpark.

Edited April 13, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[J12]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Leica is not Fuji the same way as Rolex is not Seiko and Ferrari is not Fiat. Products are not the same, markets are not the same either .

Off topic, but Fiat and Ferrari have a long and interesting collaborative history.

https://youtu.be/4yeeX58IOuY

[adan]

5 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Did Leica really think that we will let CL/TL system go away quietly ? 
I really think that they should reconsider their position. 
If we let them stop APS-C part of L-mount. Nothing will prevent them to stop the whole L-mount in the future.

Umm - what?

To the barricades? Red flags parading in the courtyard of Leitz Park? With mitrailleuses firing SD cards?

Allons enfants de la CL-Leica
Le jour de gloire est arrivé....?

[lct]

1 hour ago, J12 said:

Off topic, but Fiat and Ferrari have a long and interesting collaborative history.

https://youtu.be/4yeeX58IOuY

You could have quoted the Porsche 914 too. 

[ruskkyle]

One way the TL lenses will live on, and hold or even gain in value again, is as high quality, compact options for video. Lumix and Sigma will continue to produce L mount cameras, some of which (see the S1H) are serious filmmaking tools. They all have Super 35 crop modes, especially in higher frame rates, so if phase detect AF can be brought to the party, TL lenses will be highly desirable again. 

I will be keeping mine, and looking forward to a quality L mount hybrid system in the near future.

[Mr.Prime]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Yet you don't ask Rolex to sell at Seiko prices do you.  

Rolex already have a good range of options spanning a range of prices which includes 'entry level' watches that (the last time I looked) sell for less than a CL with 3 lenses.

[lct]

18 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

Rolex already have a good range of options spanning a range of prices which includes 'entry level' watches that (the last time I looked) sell for less than a CL with 3 lenses.

I had a Rolex "Air King" in my youth but it was much more expensive than a Seiko if memory serves.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Mr.Prime]

I'm not sure what Seiko has to do with anything, I never mentioned Seiko, I said that Rolex was doing a good job managing their product lines with products spanning a wide range of pricing.

Thing is, Leica were selling the CL and lenses for a relatively high price, not at 'Fuji' prices but lower than their other cameras and so I would have expected they calculated that this price was correct for the marketplace and also profitable for themselves. 

p.s. I had to look up the Air King, not exactly a low cost watch. What do you wear these days ?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mr.Prime