Leica APS-C -- No more!

[Le Chef]

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8 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

the Leica approach to minimalism

Surely that is both lightness and compact dimensions.

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[lct]

5 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

The TL lenses will last as long as the APS-C cameras they were made for.  I don’t see Leica making a new camera to suit TL lenses - they can be used on existing CL and TL cameras, and SL cameras in crop mode.

Leica may well make a smaller SL (SL3 or SLc, for compact), but I don’t see them making an SL camera which doesn’t handle and work perfectly with SL lenses.

Not sure to understand what you mean but i don't own an SL camera so i may be completely wrong. The "more compact" SL camera i was referring to would not be a special camera but simply the successor to the SL2, the same way as the compact R4 was the successor to the bigger R3. The SL3 could (and should) then work in FF mode with SL lenses as well as in crop mode with TL, Sigma or other APS lenses. Makes sense?

[IkarusJohn]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

Not sure to understand what you mean but i don't own an SL camera so i may be completely wrong. The "more compact" SL camera i was referring to would not be a special camera but simply the successor to the SL2, the same way as the compact R4 was the successor to the bigger R3. The SL3 could (and should) then work in FF mode with SL lenses as well as in crop mode with TL, Sigma or other APS lenses. Makes sense?

Yes, it does make sense.  My point was the SL3 will be aimed to work and handle well with SL lenses.  It won’t be made to handle well with TL lenses, which presumably Leica has also discontinued …

@Le Chef, I don’t know why minimalism means light and compact.  The M, S and SL are all minimalist in their functionality and haptics - menu design, options, buttons, where they’re placed and what they do.  Every Leica camera I can think of (perhaps with the exception of the M(240) and the M11) provides what Leica believes photographers want and need as a minimum (Das Wesentliche), rather than what the cameras can have (Sony being the classic).  The only core Leica product which is compact is the M system.

[Louis]

Just imagine the huge L lenses on a smaller-than- SL camera!

Edited April 7, 2022 by Louis

[Le Chef]

16 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I don’t know why minimalism means light and compact.

It’s a design philosophy. The first Leica was both light and compact vs cameras like the Speed Graphics. It’s why it was easier for James Jarché to capture Wallis Simpson and Edward at a nightclub because he could hide his Leica under his bowler hat.

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

It’s a design philosophy. The first Leica was both light and compact vs cameras like the Speed Graphics. It’s why it was easier for James Jarché to capture Wallis Simpson and Edward at a nightclub because he could hide his Leica under his bowler hat.

True, but I’m not sure minimalism was the driver - size was.  Das Wesentliche came later.

[tritentrue]

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4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, apart from dumping your Leica gear in rage and frustration, what would interest CL owners here?  

First and foremost, a clear warranty policy that must be honored by the "local agent" regardless of where the camera is purchased.  Secondly, a camera built to a quality level that matches its price point rather than a grossly overpriced one with china-made innards.

More specifically, an ILC system camera with weight <700g; with some weather resistance, the standard of which is clearly stated.  IBIS, price, and whether it's APS-C or full frame wouldn't matter to me.

Oh, wait . . . my R5 already satisfies those criteria . . . 

[IkarusJohn]

My SL meets those needs for me (though it is probably heavier than what you’re looking for)

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, Louis said:

Just imagine the huge L lenses on a smaller-than- SL camera!

Yeah, they might even look like a Noctilux on a M, imagine the horror

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Edited April 8, 2022 by Simone_DF

[Mr.Prime]

I remain open to a smaller travel camera from Leica that I can use my Leica m mount lenses with (using an adapter). It’s not going to be a CL2 by the sound of it but if it’s an SL3c that’s fine. In the meantime I’ve been reading up on the Fuji x-e4 and I am quite interested to get one in my hands. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[nicci78]

8 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I understand that size is the issue. So what mount would such a Q sized camera use, and for which lenses?  If Leica has discontinued the APS-C cameras, it is hardly like to continue making TL mount lenses - that would mean either permanent crop mode on a full frame body using your TL lenses or a tiny body on huge lenses.  Have you ever tried your CL on SL lenses?  If size is important, that is a non-starter.

So, you’d like new high quality, small  full frame lenses for this new camera … preferably cheap.

I tried everything on CL : TL, M, R, SL, Sigma and Panasonic lenses. 
Everything works nicely. However I carefully choose not too big ones. APO-Summicron-SL handle very well with CL and its handgrip. 
 

CL is as awesome as the lens you play with. 

[nicci78]

4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

My SL meets those needs for me (though it is probably heavier than what you’re looking for)

I totally understand that SL size is ok for some. 
But once again history is repeating. 
Leica has already chosen the path of huge but superb IQ with R line up with R8/R9/Digital-Modul-R and several huge but fantastic ROM lenses. 
Guess what ? It collapsed, and Leica stopped the whole R. 
 

The question is how many people are ready to suffer the extra weight for ultimate IQ vs the people who prefers lightweight ? 

Then just take a look at Fujifilm APS-C line up putting TL/CL into shame. 
Fujifilm small MF 33x44 is also making SL line look bad. Lenses and bodies are similarly sized. One is 24x36, the other 33x44. 
 

Competition exists, 33x44 IQ is even better than SL at a lower cost and similar bulk. 

[IkarusJohn]

10 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

CL is as awesome as the lens you play with. 

Don't have one - I have the TL2, and I agree with you.  However, both cameras appear to have ben discontinued.  So, we're discussing what might be an alternative.

@Simone, I love my Noctilux.  Try posting a picture of any SL lens on the CL.  I can tell you the Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90 doesn't work on the TL2.

[IkarusJohn]

13 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I totally understand that SL size is ok for some. 
But once again history is repeating. 
Leica has already chosen the path of huge but superb IQ with R line up with R8/R9/Digital-Modul-R and several huge but fantastic ROM lenses. 
Guess what ? It collapsed, and Leica stopped the whole R. 
 

The question is how many people are ready to suffer the extra weight for ultimate IQ vs the people who prefers lightweight ? 

Then just take a look at Fujifilm APS-C line up putting TL/CL into shame. 
Fujifilm small MF 33x44 is also making SL line look bad. Lenses and bodies are similarly sized. One is 24x36, the other 33x44. 
 

Competition exists, 33x44 IQ is even better than SL at a lower cost and similar bulk. 

I'm not sure history is repeating itself - the R system wasn't discontinued because it was a bad camera.  It's lenses were superb.  It was discontinued because it cost too much and couldn't compete.  Putting the camera into production would have bankrupted the company.

I don't agree that the question is "how many people are ready to suffer the extra weight for the ultimate IQ vs the people who prefer light weight".  It's about what Leica is interested in making (the best they can) which is profitable.  They have little interest in competing, I suspect, with Fuji.

Unlike many here, I'm not prepared to express an opinion on how well various cameras are selling, how profitable Leica is (though I understand it is very profitable, particularly compared to its competition) or how much capital it has.  I do recall that Andreas Kaufmann and his family lost a lot of money when they first bought the company - then the M9 made them a fortune ... apparently.

It seems what Leica has done is work out that for a company which prioritises quality and its unique approach to design, that its market lies not in APS-C and compact cameras, but in full frame and medium format.  Having a very good camera in my phone, I can't say I disagree with that analysis.

Edited April 8, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[tritentrue]

Owned at one time or another the SL601, SL2, and SL2-S, the second with several SL lenses.  For me, the weight was impractical.  Heading out the door with the 50 'lux, 90-280, and a body put me not far from five kilograms before adding in the weight of the bag & other stuff.

@IkarusJohn:  Surprised to hear that the 24-90mm SL doesn't work on your TL2.  Mine certainly did, although one outing with that mismatch was enough for me.  Or did you mean it doesn't work only in that it's an impractical pairing?

Edited April 8, 2022 by tritentrue

[IkarusJohn]

3 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

Owned at one time or another the SL601, SL2, and SL2-S, the second with several SL lenses.  For me, the weight was impractical.  Heading out the door with the 50 'lux, 90-280, and a body put me not far from five kilograms before adding in the weight of the bag & other stuff.

@IkarusJohn:  Surprised to hear that the 24-90mm SL doesn't work on your TL2.  Mine certainly did, although one outing with that mismatch was enough for me.  Or did you mean it doesn't work only in that it's an impractical pairing?

What?  Of course it worked functionally - not physically.  Holding a TL2, peering at the LCD or the EVF holding that lens was completely impractical.  Why would I do that to get a cropped image?  The SL would always be a better option.

I agree about weight.  At one time, I loaded my SL, three zooms. the 50 Summilux and the 75 Summicron into my backpack - completely impractical.

[Le Chef]

5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Why would I do that to get a cropped image?

Use LightRoom then you can crop in a controlled environment. 

[Le Chef]

10 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

True, but I’m not sure minimalism was the driver - size was.  Das Wesentliche came later.

I believe Das Wesentliche came in the mid late 20’s whereas Wallis and Edward were caught by Jarché in 1936.

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[lct]

An interesting point IMO is the use of small APS lenses on FF cameras in crop mode. I own only one APS lens but it is so good that i would like to use it on  a compact FF camera. Too bad current SL's are too big for me. Never really liked those big things like Contarex or Leicaflex that i could admire though and my Canon 5D was not that different but compactness is what i preferred in M cameras in the first place and young people around me are even surprised at how heavy my M240 can be. Size matters for young and old consumers nowadays to the point that i wonder if Leica can really make a living with its current SL cameras. 

[Simone_DF]

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

@Simone, I love my Noctilux.  Try posting a picture of any SL lens on the CL.  I can tell you the Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90 doesn't work on the TL2.

You mean like the superb Sigma 45mm? Doesn't look bad at all to me. Leica is not the only game in town.

.

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