Leica APS-C -- No more!

[nicci78]

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1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

The vast majority of cameras in that price range are DSLR. Should Leica give up on mirrorless and rangefinders too?

Sorry but 2.2 million DSLR. They are going down. 44% 
2.8 millions mirrorless they are the only one going up in sale. 56%
The trend is clear. DSLR will be a niche market soon. 
APS-C lose 14% of sales but Full frame only gain 2%

Edited February 22, 2022 by nicci78

[oldwino]

32 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Sorry but 2.2 million DSLR. They are going down. 44% 
2.8 millions mirrorless they are the only one going up in sale. 56%
The trend is clear. DSLR will be a niche market soon. 
APS-C lose 14% of sales but Full frame only gain 2%

Leica's "problem" is that their APS-C cameras are priced like full frame, and their full frame cameras are priced like "medium" format. For most people, there is no perceived value over the much less expensive competition. 

[LACANYONHIKER]

I just bought the CL, the 11-23 and and the Sigma 56 1.4.  I couldn't be happier with the results and shooting experience. I dig this set up.

"Gratitude is an action, it brings contentment." 😌

 

[IkarusJohn]

No surprise that dSLR and APS-C sales are falling - the former squeezed by mirrorless, the latter by cellphones.  Full frame mirrorless (which includes the M system) is no surprise that it is going up.  Photography has never been more popular, but that popularity is in snaps and social media posting, for which the phone is an excellent option - everyone has a phone (almost) with a camera in it, which makes it far more accessible than cameras ever were.  Remember, they only came onto the market in 2000, and in earnest in 2009.  Camera sales have been in decline since (point and shoots having peaked in 2010).

Photography as a hobby is probably reasonably stable, but it is driven by image quality which is improving in full frame with sensor and EVF development.

The APS-C and M4/3 sectors offered systems in compact size, with greater reach and good lenses (relatively cheap and easy to produce compared to fast full fram and medium format), but at the cost of sensor size, speed and wide angles.  It’s no surprise that full frame is the sweet spot for the keen enthusiast.  I suspect that the Sony medium format 50c based cameras have also sold well over time.

We can’t blame Leica for pausing for breath with the APS-C system cameras.  They embraced the format with the T on the basis that they would capture the phone camera users wanting more.  The CL was aimed at those not taken by the futuristic design of the T.  Don’t forget the persisted with the T with 2 more iterations,where the CL is just the TL2 wrapped in a different body.  I get the sense that the CL was never Leica’s priority - it just boosted sales to support the system.

That leaves many of us with cameras that will have limited life, and a collection of lenses.  We can use them on other L mount cameras, but none of them APS-C format.  A smaller, lighter and cheaper full frame L mount camera is a possible solution - just an entry level SL?  I doubt that very much.  I suspect Leica is moving away from “entry level” anything, though I would love a digital M-A with a meter and little else.

 

[Le Chef]

Let's assume that the CL is dead and Leica intend to launch an interchangeable FF camera that is smaller than the SL2/S cameras at some point in the future.

So how do you price it and what performance do you offer?

If you offer the same performance as the SL2-S do you price it lower, in which case you kill off the SL2-S (maybe intentionally), or price it higher where you run into the SL2 spec and pricing. 

If you spec it about the same as the CL then you have to price it about the same as the CL and offer similar specs in terms of sensor tech, EVF, LCD etc. Maybe weatherproofing, maybe IBIS. How much of a real gain is there except for the advantages of full frame. I doubt Canon, Fuji, Nikon or Sony are unduly worried.

Your next challenge is that the L range of lenses intended for the SL2/S are big, heavy and expensive. Do the majority of potential buyers of this new small FF camera want to pay for and carry those big lenses?

In addition you have just made the TL lenses a dead end, so presumably that factory is shut and the workers laid off. If you're a dealer that's a whole sales line just wiped out.

As mentioned before, without a bottom tier APSC camera Leica now starts in the rarified atmosphere of cameras priced above $5,000 where volume is thin. In addition the "entry" camera is the Q2 which as Jaap has mentioned before is a "One and Done" model with no additional sales available from a range of lenses. If you're a boutique/dealer your new opening price point is higher, you no longer have the TL lenses to give you more volume and return customers, and you have no CL model replacement in sight. 

If you're a boutique/dealer selling only Leica you should be very worried about your business base. Maybe it's time for them to get out of Leica altogether.

[IkarusJohn]

It’s a challenge for sure.  Leica has never really been keen on “cheap” or entry level lenses.  I don’t think it sees any future in entry level cameras either.  You get an SL or an M if you want a system camera, otherwise you get a Q.  I suspect that will be it.  Those coming into those systems will start with the healthy secondhand market.  As @nicci78 observes, every other maket sector is shrinking.  No space for a quality lens maker …

[aksclix]

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Well they made a cheap 24-70 SL lens in Japan when they already had a 24-90. So, outsourcing to Japan would do it I guess

[IkarusJohn]

Most of the TL lenses (except the 35 Summilux) and a number of the SL lenses are made in Japan ...

[Rusty]

Sorry everyone, its my fault and I take full responsibility.

I tried Pentax DSLR's quite a few years back and they folded.

I still have the amazing Nikon Coolpix A and thats no longer supported. Still the same spectacular IQ though.

I bought a Nikon V1 and J5 and a few lenses and that system is no longer. I have retained my V1 and the pin sharp cx70-300 which is my wildlife setup with an effective range of 189-810mm. And it still take photos as good as they day I bought it, who would have thought. I guess I'll use it till it dies.

Then before Xmas I bought a used CL and 18/2.8. My dream camera. I should have known better and I really should have warned you all. 

The thing is its the best camera I've ever owned and I love it. Stupidly I bought some sigma lenses as well. So I guess I will have to use it until it dies (or I do and given the build quality it could be me first).

Seriously its technology folks, its highly likely you will invest in a new system because the tech is so much better, well before your CL and lens stop working.

And its a leica, I look at the prices for used X1's and I think the CL will always have a good residual value.

And if any of you are still worried and want to quit the system please let me know. I will be on the lookout for some cheap lenses and accessories.

 

 

[Le Chef]

Maybe Fuji will see a small opportunity...

If Sigma DG DN lenses have been adapted to work with Fuji APSC cameras maybe someone can develop an adaptor (Fuji? Sigma?) to convert TL lenses to Fuji mount. That way you can keep shooting Leica APSC until the camera fails and then use the TL lenses on a Fuji body. If Leica won't support CL/T/TL/TL2 owners maybe Fuji will.

[Rusty]

11 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Maybe Fuji will see a small opportunity...

If Sigma DG DN lenses have been adapted to work with Fuji APSC cameras maybe someone can develop an adaptor (Fuji? Sigma?) to convert TL lenses to Fuji mount. That way you can keep shooting Leica APSC until the camera fails and then use the TL lenses on a Fuji body. If Leica won't support CL/T/TL/TL2 owners maybe Fuji will.

Sigma in fact offer a service to change the mount but only on Sigma lenses.

[Shawn30]

This isn't new, Leica has departed from other cameras before. I have every confidence my CL will work for years and years to come. 

My question is how long do you think a digital camera should be useful for? Not to mention the AF lens's. These aren't the MF focus M lens's that are going to be around 70 years. For me all the L mount Len's I have are the significant portion of the investment. The TL lens's work great on the SL2. If Leica were dropping the L mount, that would be a major cause for concern.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Shawn30

[LACANYONHIKER]

1 hour ago, Rusty said:

Sorry everyone, its my fault and I take full responsibility.

I tried Pentax DSLR's quite a few years back and they folded.

I still have the amazing Nikon Coolpix A and thats no longer supported. Still the same spectacular IQ though.

I bought a Nikon V1 and J5 and a few lenses and that system is no longer. I have retained my V1 and the pin sharp cx70-300 which is my wildlife setup with an effective range of 189-810mm. And it still take photos as good as they day I bought it, who would have thought. I guess I'll use it till it dies.

Then before Xmas I bought a used CL and 18/2.8. My dream camera. I should have known better and I really should have warned you all. 

The thing is its the best camera I've ever owned and I love it. Stupidly I bought some sigma lenses as well. So I guess I will have to use it until it dies (or I do and given the build quality it could be me first).

Seriously its technology folks, its highly likely you will invest in a new system because the tech is so much better, well before your CL and lens stop working.

And its a leica, I look at the prices for used X1's and I think the CL will always have a good residual value.

And if any of you are still worried and want to quit the system please let me know. I will be on the lookout for some cheap lenses and accessories.

 

 

I LOVED my Nikon V1, I have so many great actions shots of my dog taken with that V1.  In fact, that came to mind when I bought my CL last month. I really enjoy small system cameras.  Long live the CL. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

If Sigma DG DN lenses have been adapted to work with Fuji APSC cameras maybe someone can develop an adaptor (Fuji? Sigma?) to convert TL lenses to Fuji mount. That way you can keep shooting Leica APSC until the camera fails and then use the TL lenses on a Fuji body. If Leica won't support CL/T/TL/TL2 owners maybe Fuji will.

It is quite surprising that there seems to be no adapter for using Leica L lenses on Fujifilm X-mount cameras. The flange distances are 20mm for Leica L and 17.7mm for Fujifilm X. It should be possible to construct at least a dumb adapter without electronics to bridge these 2.3mm. After all, the difference between Leica M and LTM is just 1mm and there are plenty of adapters available. Maybe there is a problem with the diameters of the L and X mounts that makes it impossible to build such an adapter.

[frame-it]

12 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

It is quite surprising that there seems to be no adapter for using Leica L lenses on Fujifilm X-mount cameras. The flange distances are 20mm for Leica L and 17.7mm for Fujifilm X. It should be possible to construct at least a dumb adapter without electronics to bridge these 2.3mm. After all, the difference between Leica M and LTM is just 1mm and there are plenty of adapters available. Maybe there is a problem with the diameters of the L and X mounts that makes it impossible to build such an adapter.

and what about aperture control & AF ?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, frame-it said:

and what about aperture control & AF ?

Oh yes, forgot that these lenses have no aperture ring... All my lenses have, so that's something I easily forget. AF: I guess manual focus would be fine for many users (hopefully, L lenses have at least a focus ring).

[tritentrue]

Somebody, somewhere at Leica in Wetzlar is reading this, thinking, "We haven't released any new APS-C product since November 2017, and these people are just now catching on?"

Whatever direction Leica takes, no matter. I will continue to enjoy shooting with my CLs and TL lenses forever . . . or until they don't work any more . . . or until some updated technology catches my fancy . . . 

 . . . or until the next bout of G.A.S. strikes . . . 

[ramarren]

I don't have any TL lenses, but on my SL lenses (24-90 and 90-280), the focus was by wire IIRC ... Which means these are dedicated lenses that can only be used, effectively, on a proper Leica L-mount implementation, or on an adapter that translates the control protocol for either the camera or user/manual use. 

Since I use all mechanical, user-controlled Leica M- and R-mount lenses with my CL, eschewing AF and Program exposure mode in the process, my CL body is future proofed. And if I want to switch to an M10 or M11 or any newer M body once my CL goes belly up, well, it's all easy. 

Somehow, though, I think the CL might last longer than me. It's very nicely made and still works exactly as it did in 2017 when I bought it. And I haven't outgrown what it can do... 

G

[Mr.Prime]

My CL was my first ever purchase of a new Leica camera.  Was pretty pumped about it, this is a brand with serious respect and heritage; I was being admitted to an exclusive club and becoming the owner of a very nice camera. This will stick with me.

I had my CL for only a few months, but I sold it on before I gave it enough time due to finding it hard to figure out how to use it with manual glass. I didn’t have a dealer to help me because I bought it on-line and I didn’t make good use of this forum so I got frustrated. IMy interest was in using M-mount and screw-mount lenses from my collection (originally bought for use with an original Barnack, an M3 and M4). So I never got around to trying out the AF but if I had kept it just a bit longer I would have bought an AF lens. The image quality was superb, better than anything else I have used and more than enough for all perceived uses, the size and weight were ideal, the quality was excellent. It wasn’t perfect, I would have preferred a more traditional shutter speed knob that I could read at a glance even with power off. It would benefit from a SOTA EVF but the one it had was good.
 

So given this news of the demise of the CL line, it stirs some regret that I sold my CL before giving it a proper chance. I was also starting to buy into the idea that a CL-2 was around the corner. Now that they are obsoleted it’s a difficult choice to go back and I understand there may not be many new CL’s available. It means there is no Leica product suitable for me, they are currently too big and/or too heavy, or don’t allow use of my manual lenses, are generally too expensive, out of service (M9) or all of the above. The danger that my iphone will become my preferred digital camera and taking market away from small cameras like the CL, starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy when the product line no longer gets investment from it’s creator.

Nevertheless, I’m hoping Leica will produce something one day to pull me back into the fold and avoid me slipping into the Fuji XT-4 camp!

Edited February 23, 2022 by Mr.Prime

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[geoffreyg]

11 hours ago, Louis said:

Leica is not telling us about their plans because they change their mind every day and they don’t seem to know what they are doing! I know that over 50% of the company’s shares belong to Dr. Kaufman family; but I think the other share holders should also pay a closer attention to what is going on in Wetzlar!

I'm having trouble trusting this, as we (as far as I know) have no clue as to what they are really doing. Seems like speculation than fact.