Leica Lens mount flange

[doctorlebel]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi, can anybody with knowledge confirm if a Leica 1a (circa 1929) that has been converted to a Leica III, would have a lens mount flange without the little o at 12 o’clock?  Should a camera of that period be equipped with a lens flange with the standardization “o” at the top?  Thanks for your help!

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[luigi bertolotti]

Afaik the "O" at 12 was engraved on the first standard cameras, not on the converted ones... but I think that exceptions can exist, maybe depending on when the factory made the conversion (it was listed for many years) ; someone of our experts  can be more precise on this matter.

 

[nitroplait]

My 1929 1A was converted to II presumably in the first half of the 1930's (at a time where the III was already introduced). It has the "0"
- However I fail to see why it would be necessary to engrave the 0 on a rangefinder converted camera as a camera being a II or III would in itself imply that the mount is standardised.
Unless there are exceptions I don't know about (which is not unlikely).

[jerzy]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb nitroplait:

being a II or III would in itself imply that the mount is standardised.

it is valid argument! In production cameras Leitz stopped engraving 0 sometime in 1939, camera 319xxx has it, 330xxx (and later) does not have it anymore. This is what I observed on my cameras, (exceptions are always possible). I would assume that same is valid for conversions.
Back to camera from the topic - it depends, some photos could possibly tell more. During conversion body shell and lens flange were replaced/added and time of conversion determines if there is 0 or not

[jerzy]

two 5 digit converions (19xxx and 42xxx) done in 1932 and postwar (post 1953)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Leitz was using for conversions production parts as long as they fitted. For conversion into IIIa syn (black one) specially designed top cover has been produced and in this time II and III models were not in production anymore (exception are few 18x24 from Canadian production, they were produced in 50-ties and were flash synced).

[willeica]

12 hours ago, doctorlebel said:

Hi, can anybody with knowledge confirm if a Leica 1a (circa 1929) that has been converted to a Leica III, would have a lens mount flange without the little o at 12 o’clock?  Should a camera of that period be equipped with a lens flange with the standardization “o” at the top?  Thanks for your help!

As Jerzy says, it often depends on when the conversion was done. It also depends on what parts were used. As for Nitroplait’s last point, which seems quite logical, the adding of a rangefinder was not enough to standardise a camera. The  I A  camera would also have needed a new standardised mount and testing to confirm that. In addition, as Jerzy says,  cameras with rangefinders continued to carry a 0 on the mount until about the end of 1930s. 

I have a lot of cameras to check, but I believe the change started to come in with the introduction of the IIIc. You don’t always find total consistency or logic in the practices at Leitz. 

William 

[nf3996]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, jerzy said:

In production cameras Leitz stopped engraving 0 sometime in 1939, camera 319xxx has it, 330xxx (and later) does not have it anymore. This is what I observed on my cameras, (exceptions are always possible).

My normal production Leica IIIa #274142 dates from 1938 and has no '0' engraved on the lens flange.

Alan

[luigi bertolotti]

14 minutes ago, nf3996 said:

My normal production Leica IIIa #274142 dates from 1938 and has no '0' engraved on the lens flange.

Alan

Ah...😁usual exceptions when we go in depth on small detaiis... well... the flange of course was also a spare : it can well be exchanged in occasion of some CLA... it can be worn, dirty, etc..., and from some date onwards the famed "O" simply wasn't anymore contemplated  in the std. machining cycle,

A collateral pedantic question 🙄 : what if tne owner of a non standard/uncoupled camera (with, say, a set of 3 "good" lenses) did send it to Leitz in much later times (say... '50s) for a overhaul/CLA ? Did CS keep it "as is"... with shims... or by definition did convert it to standard, thus impacting lenses too ? 

[willeica]

55 minutes ago, nf3996 said:

My normal production Leica IIIa #274142 dates from 1938 and has no '0' engraved on the lens flange.

Alan

Which proves the point I made above. However, Luigi's point about a replacement would also be valid.

27 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Ah...😁usual exceptions when we go in depth on small detaiis... well... the flange of course was also a spare : it can well be exchanged in occasion of some CLA... it can be worn, dirty, etc..., and from some date onwards the famed "O" simply wasn't anymore contemplated  in the std. machining cycle,

A collateral pedantic question 🙄 : what if tne owner of a non standard/uncoupled camera (with, say, a set of 3 "good" lenses) did send it to Leitz in much later times (say... '50s) for a overhaul/CLA ? Did CS keep it "as is"... with shims... or by definition did convert it to standard, thus impacting lenses too ? 

A camera from the Standardised I Model C onwards would not have needed a new mount, but an earlier one would have required a new mount. For conversion to a II or III, a rangefinder cam set up would also have been added. I suspect that for early cameras being converted they would have looked at the shims and maybe also have used the small hole at the back of the camera with a  ground glass screen. I imagine that the lenses could also be standardised by changing the mount. One thing that is certain is that the Leitz technicians would have tested everything and have left nothing to chance. Jerzy might have something to add about this. 

I will have a look later at my cameras/lenses from the late 30s/early 40s to see if I can detect a rough changeover point.

William 

[doctorlebel]

Thanks for everyone’s inputs.  I’ve attached a couple pictures of the camera.  It has a serial number 29129.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jerzy]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb nf3996:

My normal production Leica IIIa #274142 dates from 1938 and has no '0' engraved on the lens flange

yes, as Luigi and others mentioned: exception or repair. Photo below shows 127159, produced in 1934 as III black painted. Now it is as well III BP (whatever is left from black paint)  but this is completly renewed camera within 4 "visits" in the factory (3 repairs prewar are documented in Leitz Archive, the last one approx 1951 is not). During last repair camera received new bodyshell (vulcanite structure indicates that it was postwar) and new lens flange.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Shimming the lens flange was done longer, as well for II and III. In June 1934 Leitz started to press brass ring into Alu shell that was then precisely milled to have 28,8mm, shims became obsolete. But - I found as well later cameras with brass ring and shims. So again exceptions.

Back to the camera from doctrolebel - top cover (shape of window, engravings) point to convertion date of approx 1938, camera should have 0 then. But vulcanite looks to me different than used in 1938, it is either leatherette or was replaced postwar

And commenting Luigi`s question about what has been done during repair/conversion. AFAIK Leitz "updated" cameras to the current production status. As such ,the camera mentioned by me, 127159, received during last, postwar repair even curtain brake that originates from IIIc and was very rarely built into IIIa from postwar production.

But "standardising" camera lens flange without agreeing upfront with customer - no. They would need to have as well all lenses to be sent.