Would you buy an EVF only camera with an M mount?

[Planetwide]

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2 hours ago, pgk said:

But there are plenty of options to do just this already. The only difference beingthis would be an M sized body and have a sensor optimised for some M lenses.

Exactly, but the sensor would be the same as the M11

[lct]

In no way could an L-mount camera replace the EVF-M for two main reasons:
1. Smeared corners on WA and UWA lenses. The only way to avoid that would be to implement a sensor dedicated especially to M lenses. But then why using an L mount if L-mount lenses cannot get a sensor dedicated to them? And what's the point of using monstrous AF lenses on a compact manual camera?
2. Necessity to use an adapter and impossibility to do auto image magnification for lack of this little round thing called a roller cam. Some good colleagues here have been arguing that a special adapter with a roller cam could be made but they never explained, nor even tried to explain, how to do this and Leica has never announced such a special adapter since the launch of the SL in 2015.

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[Tailwagger]

4 hours ago, pgk said:

The only difference being this would be an M sized body and have a sensor optimised for some M lenses.

Well let's just kill the M then. The only difference would be no RF, an even smaller body and a price drop of a few grand. Just mount a franken finder if you feel the need to look through glass. 🤣 

 

 

[mujk]

29 minutes ago, lct said:

In no way could an L-mount camera replace the EVF-M for two main reasons:
1. Smeared corners on WA and UWA lenses. The only way to avoid that would be to implement a sensor dedicated especially to M lenses. But then why using an L mount if L-mount lenses cannot get a sensor dedicated to them? And what's the point of using monstrous AF lenses on a compact manual camera?
2. Necessity to use an adapter and impossibility to do auto image magnification for lack of this little round thing called a roller cam. Some good colleagues here have been arguing that a special adapter with a roller cam could be made but they never explained, nor even tried to explain, how to do this and Leica has never announced such a special adapter since the launch of the SL in 2015.

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I don't think an EVF-M would have a roller cam. It is there for the purpose of coupling the lens focusing mechanism to the rangefinder, meaning it is part of the rangefinder mechanism. But the EVF-M could have something else that detected focussing, possibly an optical sensor. That would of course be possible to implement in an adapter as well or, even better, the lens-movement detection could be completely mount/adapter independent. Thinking of a distanse sensor measuring the distance/movement of the rear lens element. Would work with many other lenses, too.

[pgk]

48 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Well let's just kill the M then. The only difference would be no RF, an even smaller body and a price drop of a few grand.

That sound like a Sony A7 series body ......

 

[lct]

1 hour ago, mujk said:

I don't think an EVF-M would have a roller cam. It is there for the purpose of coupling the lens focusing mechanism to the rangefinder, meaning it is part of the rangefinder mechanism. But the EVF-M could have something else that detected focussing, possibly an optical sensor. That would of course be possible to implement in an adapter as well or, even better, the lens-movement detection could be completely mount/adapter independent. Thinking of a distanse sensor measuring the distance/movement of the rear lens element. Would work with many other lenses, too.

This electronic adapter have never been made nor suggested anywhere AFAIK. It should work with lenses as different as current M lenses and old LTM ones with adapter or M lenses intruding farther into the body. Will happen when pigs can fly if you ask me, but please feel free to get to work on your drawing board if you have good ideas  .

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Edited March 20, 2022 by lct

[Kwesi]

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Let's look at this from Leica's perspective.

I think it's important to acknowledge that by creating an EVF M Leica will be giving up its competitive advantage in a very crowded marketplace.

Especially if it doesn't update its lenses with electronics at time of introduction.

I honestly think that Leica's best bet is to continue to work on the CL line of cameras and perhaps be less afraid that a full frame CL will kill the M.

 

[lct]

7 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Let's look at this from Leica's perspective.

I think it's important to acknowledge that by creating an EVF M Leica will be giving up its competitive advantage in a very crowded marketplace.

Especially if it doesn't update its lenses with electronics at time of introduction.

Whom are you seeing in the full frame manual lens EVF cameras market place if i may ask? Just curious. As for "updating" M lenses, how would we use those  electronic things on our M3 or M8.2? As far as i'm concerned, the interest of M lenses is i can use them on both film and digital cameras with no significant restriction and i already know that i can use them the same way on the M11 and following M-mount bodies including the EVF-M hopefully. YMMV. 

[Kwesi]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

Whom are you seeing in the full frame manual lens EVF cameras market place if i may ask? Just curious. As for "updating" M lenses, how would we use those  electronic things on our M3 or M8.2? As far as i'm concerned, the interest of M lenses is i can use them on both film and digital cameras with no significant restriction and i already know that i can use them the same way on the M11 and following M-mount bodies including the EVF-M hopefully. YMMV. 

I believe Sony, Nikon Canon lenses can be focussed manually. 

How would we use these lenses on Legacy M cameras?, There lies the challenge for Leica.

Nikon and Canon have had to abandon their legacy mounts maybe Leica can do better.

My point is simply shoving an EVF into an M body, shoving into a box with a catchy name or tagline isn't going to be enough to avoid ridicule in a marketplace that is heavily reliant on social media for its success.

But lets say Leica decided to go for it and make an EVF M variant with the hope of selling it in MD and Monochrom numbers. How much would they have charge to make it economically viable for Leica? Keep in mind that unlike the MD they aren't just removing a screen. Unlike the Monochrom, they aren't just substituting a sensor.

[lct]

49 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

I believe Sony, Nikon Canon lenses can be focussed manually. 

How would we use these lenses on Legacy M cameras?

The same way as we do, or not, on current M-mount cameras. I am myself a Sony user, my favorite lenses on it are M lenses but it would not occur to me to use Sony lenses on my M240. 

[pop]

There have been M type cameras without rangefinders or even viewfinders for eternities. Why not digital ones as well?

 

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, lct said:

How would we use these lenses on Legacy M cameras

Sorry I wasn’t clear. Im talking about legacy M lenses

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, pop said:

There have been M type cameras without rangefinders or even viewfinders for eternities. Why not digital ones as well?

 

I strongly believe that at some point Leica will come out with an EVF M. My point is that it Leica is smart enough to know that without proper lens integration at introduction it’s doomed to failure. 

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Let's look at this from Leica's perspective.

I think it's important to acknowledge that by creating an EVF M Leica will be giving up its competitive advantage in a very crowded marketplace.

Especially if it doesn't update its lenses with electronics at time of introduction.

I honestly think that Leica's best bet is to continue to work on the CL line of cameras and perhaps be less afraid that a full frame CL will kill the M.

I'm lost.

I get it that for some, the M camera is all about the rangefinder.  Take away the rangefinder, and what is left?  An EVF camera without AF and no communication between the camera and lenses.  However, for many, the M camera is about the form factor, the haptics and the lenses.  As they are.  All 60 years of them.

We already have an M with an EVF - the Visoflex.  And many people use it happily.  Simply putting the EVF inside the camera isn't such a huge step.  You don't need to change a single thing in the rest of the camera.  Sure, mock it with "catchy name or tagline", simply as it isn't for you.  I can't see such a camera getting as much ridicule as the Monochrom when it was first released or the M Edition 60 ...

The great thing is that the M camera you use and love won't be affected one jot!

Edited March 20, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[adan]

32 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

However, for many, the M camera is about the form factor, the haptics and the lenses.

The question is - How "many?" The poll right now says 46 - which is less than half the membership of my little 'ol cooperative art gallery. If one squints real hard, maybe one can get to 64 or so - still only half of my co-op.

Not a very impressive market to spend R&D on.

If one wants to claim that is 46% of all M users, or all potential M users - one has to demonstrate that a poll of "self-selected respondents" on one forum is actually representative. And not just a vocal little tribe.

When Leica reversed course in 1976 or so, and preserved the M system instead of ending it, it was on the basis of 1000 firm orders in hand collected by Walter Kluck of Leitz Canada.

Y'all need to come up with another 937 votes - at least.

[IkarusJohn]

One doesn't have to "demonstrate" anything.  Thankfully, Leica will make its decision based on its own information and its own research.  I doubt very much that Leica would be profitable at all if it got its marketing and product development strategy here ...

[pop]

4 hours ago, Kwesi said:

update its lenses with electronics at time of introduction.

I sense a number of misunderstandings here.

'Lenses with electronics' is in itself a meaningless phrase. In terms of the ongoing discussion, it would be understood to mean lenses with sensors for aperture and/or distance, actuators for either or both and the associated communication between camera and lens.

This would require the addition of an electric connection to the lens socket as electronics, sensors and actuators (motors) need power, unless you want to add a battery compartment to each lens, in which case an optical connection might suffice, but the battery life time might be but short. There have been reports of light entering through the lens mount. Adding electrical contacts to the lens mount risks exarcebating the issue.

Solid state diaphragms have not been invented yet, I believe. Hence, setting the aperture would require some kind of motor and mechanical gears of some sort. The motor would have to be pretty strong in order to operate the diaphragm before releasing the shutter. Also, it must not compromise the manual operation of the lens on bodies which do not provide electrical power to the lens.

Adding autofocus to an M lens would be quite counter-intuitive; simply motorising existing M lenses would most certainly not perform adequately. Modern autofocus lenses must be designed from the beginning for this mode of operation.

So, let's presume that Leica converted an appreciable part of its M lens range to auto-aperture mode.  I don't think there would be many users of rangefinder cameras who would use that. Hence, they would pay for an addition they neither want nor need. New customers whose first M camera would be EVF cameras would think twice about buying into system with native lenses with an obvious kludge. Also, they would shortly find out that their EVF cameras only worked as advertised with the lastest lenses, not with any of the many legacy lenses available in the market.

This does not seem to be a sensible development for the M mount.

 

[IkarusJohn]

I read the suggestion as being - if you make the viewfinder electronic, then you might as well use L mount lenses.  It didn't make sense to me either.  Making the viewfinder an EVF doesn't need to affect the mount, the sensor or anything else in the existing M camera, other than the viewfinder ...

[Tailwagger]

10 hours ago, harmen said:

I mean, what is operationally unique and excellent about it?

The EVF on the M is an afterthought and always will be.  So let's start with that. Fully optimized for manual focus via EVF, meaning serious focusing aids that guarantee those with average eyesight in 90%+ situations that focus is easily achieved regardless of focal length and aperture.  State of the art EVF in resolution, refresh rate and low light performance. IBIS, a continual nonstarter with the M and perhaps, though I have no interest, bring back video.  A shutter that starts in the open position or is eliminated all together. And no mechanical RF to fret over adjusting after a year of use, nor any need to ever calibrate one's lenses to said RF. 

From there it could in any number of directions. On one hand you could jettison the rear display and allow the VF to swing vertically for waist finding... cause not an M. You now can potentially shrink the size of the camera down to a near Rollei 35 size, truly pocketable when sporting a lens like the 28mm Summaron... cause no RF, not an M.  Or you can go the other way and add in a full tilt/swing rear display something the M is likely never going to have.  There are any number of other things that could be done, a few that are possible that shouldn't be... an autofocus ala techart on Sony cones to mind for example. We'll see when it arrives. 

 

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[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, pop said:

This would require the addition of an electric connection to the lens socket as electronics, sensors and actuators (motors) need power, unless you want to add a battery compartment to each lens, in which case an optical connection might suffice, but the battery life time might be but short.

If the aim is some form of auto aperture, but I suspect we can agree that this level of alteration is as much of a non-starter as is a whole new line of lenses.  And of course this path fails to address the 70 years of existing ones, which is the whole point of the exercise to begin with. One might as well propose a new line of battery powered OIS M lenses. Again, aint happening.

If we drop AA as a requirement, one can postulate that what's needed is a reliable and accurate way of telling the body what the current working aperture is such that the EVF can brighten or engage/adjust alternate focusing aids for actual conditions.  Off the top of my head, there are two ways this might be doable.  One way this could be accomplished with 100% accuracy and no new physical connections whatsoever is via RFID position sensing.  Much as with 6 bit encoding, extent lenses would require a retrofit, to take advantage of the feature, but new lenses could be equipped with it as standard and operate on existing Ms with no issue. The furthest any aperture ring is from the body is only a few inches which is well within the general operating range of non-powered RFIDs. 

The more palatable solution however would be improving on the existing software based aperture calculation via ML. I doesn't strike me as impossible to train a model that could be far more accurate in estimating the working aperture.  One might even be able to implement an in camera training mode which would enable owners to teach the camera about their own set of lenses to optimize things.  And as a bonus, this same technology could be included in the M as well so we could finally get accurate F-stop info there as well.  

Edited March 20, 2022 by Tailwagger