Lag test - M11 in rangefinder vs liveview mode

[sebben]

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I’m using the numbers from Sean Reid that were quoted here at some point. The exact amount doesn’t really matter because at the end of the day the M10 is faster and the M11 catches moments more in the future relative to shutter release 🥳

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, sebben said:

I’m using the numbers from Sean Reid that were quoted here at some point. The exact amount doesn’t really matter because at the end of the day the M10 is faster and the M11 catches moments more in the future relative to shutter release 🥳

I was using Leica's own measurement. Sean Reid measured 17ms, not 20m. That is a very significant 15% difference 😉.

M11 catches moments 10-17ms later than M10. I think everybody can decide how much that matters. I doubt it matters at all in practice.

BTW, Leica says that electronic shutter has a longer shutter lag.

Edited January 24, 2022 by SrMi

[Daedalus2000]

17 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I conducted a quick and dirty little test to check the latency of the M11 when in rangefinder mode vs live-view mode.

Holding the camera in my right hand, I held out my left arm so I could see it in the OVF / EVF. Starting with my hand outstretched, I quickly touched my index finger to my thumb and back to an outstretched position as quickly as I could. As my finger hit the thumb, I clicked the shutter. I did this around a dozen times in a row for each camera setting.

Understand that I'm going by feel here, I'm not responding to the scene. Try tapping your index and thumb together on each hand at the same time, you can easily tell when you're off in your timing. I know this is as unscientific as it gets, but the results were repeatable enough to see the pattern.

When looking through the OVF, with live view switched off, each image showed my thumb and finger still touching - so the timing was spot on.

Turning on live view and looking through the EVF to take each shot, each image showed my thumb and finger separated (about half way towards an outstretched hand). And finally, keeping live view on, but looking through the OVF instead, the results were identical to the EVF test. 

So using the EVF, or using the OVF with live-view still switched on, you'll have the same noticeable latency - but using the camera in 'rangefinder mode' with live-view switched off, there does seem to be less latency. 

 

I reported the same thing some time ago. It does make a difference for street photography...

 

[Daedalus2000]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

I was using Leica's own measurement. Sean Reid measured 17ms, not 20m. That is a very significant 15% difference 😉.

M11 catches moments 10-17ms later than M10. I think everybody can decide how much that matters. I doubt it matters at all in practice.

BTW, Leica says that electronic shutter has a longer shutter lag.

Sorry are the 10-20ms delay with live view on or without?

Because we have 2 possible delays, one from the sensor being open and measuring exposure and a second, larger one with the sensor open, measuring exposure and transmitting image to the LCD or EVF.

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Sorry are the 10-20ms delay with live view on or without?

Because we have 2 possible delays, one from the sensor being open and measuring exposure and a second, larger one with the sensor open, measuring exposure and transmitting image to the LCD or EVF.

Rangefinder mode, I guess. I don’t know whether there is any difference.

[Daedalus2000]

Just now, SrMi said:

Rangefinder mode, I guess. I don’t know whether there is any difference.

Thanks, I do not subscribe to Reid's web site anymore so I do not know how he tested. 

[Daedalus2000]

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7 hours ago, orcinus said:

No you won’t, you’ll just capture it a bit sooner - but you’ll still be far off from the moment.

As long as the delay is consistent, you will learn to anticipate, whether the delay is 250, 300, or 350ms is irrelevant.

You cannot anticipate something that you are reacting to. The truth is live view adds some delay and it can be felt. It is all about the incremental delay

[SrMi]

It is hard to measure EVF lag. Jim Kasson measured the Sony a9 LCD lag: 30-35ms.

[digitalfx]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

I was using Leica's own measurement. Sean Reid measured 17ms, not 20m. That is a very significant 15% difference 😉.

M11 catches moments 10-17ms later than M10. I think everybody can decide how much that matters. I doubt it matters at all in practice.

BTW, Leica says that electronic shutter has a longer shutter lag.

 

10 hours ago, sebben said:

I’m using the numbers from Sean Reid that were quoted here at some point. The exact amount doesn’t really matter because at the end of the day the M10 is faster and the M11 catches moments more in the future relative to shutter release 🥳

In the Leica Tech Talk they state it is measured in the lab at 10ms...so yes you are capturing images .01 seconds in the future

[sebben]

7 hours ago, digitalfx said:

 

In the Leica Tech Talk they state it is measured in the lab at 10ms...so yes you are capturing images .01 seconds in the future

That would be 1/100. Do you have a source for this because there are a lot of numbers floating around and there is quite a difference between 1/25 and 1/100

[otto.f]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:57 AM, Stevejack said:

I know this is as unscientific as it gets

Mwah, I find this a bit relative, you can also say 'as scientific as it gets with this method', and your method is transparent. If you do so many measurements as you did, it is quite convincing. Like in music making: people are quite able to hit two fingers from two different hands at the same time. Plus the fact that some technician will be able to explain that the process with EVF just takes more time, physically. There's a very slim chance that there would be some unconscious effect if tester wants to proof the preference of OVF, but why would he, it's only better if they are equal. (i'm not going to debate this, just giving my opinion, due to experience with internet debates about "scientific" 😁)

Edited January 25, 2022 by otto.f

[Alexander-HH]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb sebben:

That would be 1/100. Do you have a source for this because there are a lot of numbers floating around and there is quite a difference between 1/25 and 1/100

From my understanding Leica said the M11 has 10ms more lag compared to the M10, not 10ms shutter lag in total (?)

Edited January 25, 2022 by Alexander-HH

[sebben]

4 minutes ago, Alexander-HH said:

From my understanding Leica said the M11 has 10ms more lag compared to the M10, not 10ms shutter lag in total (?)

Yes I have seen numbers be tween 50ms and 64ms so would be great to get the correct one 😀

[Daedalus2000]

So I did the following experiment, I set an digital clock and I tried to click the shutter as soon as possible after I saw the seconds number change. I did this multiple times and then I looked at the pictures to see what number was actually recorded. This is what I got in terms of average delay, which of course includes the time for my brain to see the change and then my finger to react plus of course any shutter delay. So we are really interested in the differences:

1st case, looking through the OVF, no live view :   0.43 seconds

2nd case, looking through the OVF, live view ON:  0.55 seconds   (plus 0.12 seconds,  delay maybe due to live view)

3rd case, looking through the LCD, live view ON :  0.63 seconds  (plus 0.20 seconds,  delay maybe due to live view and due to me looking through the LCD

Now dont take this as a perfect test, but it gives you an idea of what I see. You can replicate the tests easily to see if you get similar results)

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daedalus2000

[digitalfx]

2 hours ago, Alexander-HH said:

From my understanding Leica said the M11 has 10ms more lag compared to the M10, not 10ms shutter lag in total (?)

 

4 hours ago, sebben said:

That would be 1/100. Do you have a source for this because there are a lot of numbers floating around and there is quite a difference between 1/25 and 1/100

correct .001 I dropped a zero. Link is here, its at 50:25...and yes 10ms slower than M10. He says "shutter lag compared to M10 is quite the same"

 

[dkmoore]

I get this delay is very very small but would it still impact focus if you are not perfectly still or using a tripod?

for instance, you may sway slightly after clicking the shutter release which could move the focus point. I think this would only matter with 1.4 and faster lenses and shooting portraits and focusing on the eyes. 
 

Is the lag far too short a time for the above to be an issue? I can’t test this because my M11 rangefinder is front focusing out of the box. 
 

I am thinking about a similar response when shooting handguns. You anticipate pulling the trigger and it throws off your aim if you don’t exercise good form. I’m probably taking this too far but curious nonetheless. 

[mmradman]

37 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

 

correct .001 I dropped a zero. Link is here, its at 50:25...and yes 10ms slower than M10. He says "shutter lag compared to M10 is quite the same"

 

Re 50:25 he is saying "shutter lag is not fast", meaning it is slow, and "better if you use mechanical shutter" as in utilising OVF without Liveview or EVF. 

No doubt M11 is improved camera compared to previous model, especially sensor however EVF implementation other than the Visoflex attachment itself is not really main selling feature. 

[SrMi]

25 minutes ago, mmradman said:

Re 50:25 he is saying "shutter lag is not fast", meaning it is slow, and "better if you use mechanical shutter" as in utilising OVF without Liveview or EVF. 

No doubt M11 is improved camera compared to previous model, especially sensor however EVF implementation other than the Visoflex attachment itself is not really main selling feature. 

Mechanical vs. electronic shutter has nothing to do with OVF vs. EVF. You can use electronic shutter with OVF and mechanical with EVF.

[Daedalus2000]

51 minutes ago, mmradman said:

Re 50:25 he is saying "shutter lag is not fast", meaning it is slow, and "better if you use mechanical shutter" as in utilising OVF without Liveview or EVF. 

 

He means there that the electronic shutter has a bigger delay (for the first shot at least) and therefore if you care about the shutter lag it is better to use the mechanical shutter instead or the electronic shutter. Live view and EVF are separate issues from this distinction

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daedalus2000

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[mmradman]

6 minutes ago, Daedalus2000 said:

He means there that the electronic shutter has a bigger delay (for the first shot at least) and therefore if you care about the shutter lag it is better to use the mechanical shutter instead or the electronic shutter. Live view and EVF are separate issues from this distinction

Thanks for clarifying.

Shutter lag regardless of reason is never good thing.  If Electronic shutter is laggy (if there is such word) than it would be good for static & semi-static subjects only.  No capturing decisive moments there.

More importantly, how responsive is mechanical shutter considering that M11 works with  shutter curtain open at all times?  My only current digital M is 246 has mechanical shutter only and when shooting using OVF only it is as good as instant while shooting in LiveView/EVF (shutter again only mechanical) is well known to be painfully slow - about 1 second to take a shot.